Podcast interview with Professor Emma Short, University Lecturer and expert in Cyberpsychology. Listen to other episodes from 'Detective Diaries'

Podcast: Cyberpsychology Part 1

Podcast: Cyberpsychology Part 2

TRANSCRIPT

Cyberpsychology (Part 2)

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Welcome to Detective Diaries brought to you by Private Detectives' Answers Investigation.

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If you are captivated by the art of deduction, the thrill of solving the unsolvable, or the

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enigmatic world of private investigation, you've just found your new favourite podcast.

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Detective Diaries is where secrets unravel and the truth is always a clue away, presented

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by Private Detectives' Answers Investigation. Each episode contains offbeat conversations

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about the real people involved in investigation.

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You are listening to part 2 of my wonderful conversation with Professor Emma Short exploring

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the themes of cyber psychology. Part 1, explored the foundations of cyber psychology and

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the hidden psychological impact of life online. But don't worry, you can jump into part 2

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right here, but with that said, do be sure to go back and listen to part 1 as we give

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you a deeper context into the world of cyber psychology. Enjoy.

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We're obviously talking about tools, open source intelligence and social media. We've

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talked about how that perhaps blurs some lines, but do you think that will cause people

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to perhaps become their own investigators?

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Yeah, I really think that this does happen. And again, we've seen it in a popular

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media because social media creates a second tier of investigators, the crowd.

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And we've talked about those groups dynamics that being pulled into something that feels

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meaningful, that gives you a sense of belonging and identity is something that as human

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being's we all want. And if you've got a job to do, I.e. your sleuthing over a particular

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thing, for example, it feels really purposeful. So we've seen a number of these things happen

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where it goes really, really well when the crowd does detect something and bring it to the

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attention of the police. But we've also seen it, you know, sort of where it turns out really

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badly where vigilantism and which is really cyber. I think someone has put those two words

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together, but I can't think how it sounds cyber and vigilante. And that was the case that

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was in an Netflix series about the Cecil Hotel, where the crowd had analysed every moment,

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every frame of the footage that remained of Alisa Lam who died and thought they had identified

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the person who may have been linked to her death. And no one was linked to her death in the

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end. It was a tragic accident, but they named this person, they pursued him. And you know,

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he talks about it in the series about having his life at that time, I think, for him it felt

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catastrophic. You know, let's hope very much. He's sort of come back from that. But yeah,

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the crowd and open source data, those two make a powerful combination. And again, it's

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that immediate levels of access have never been more so open now than before. Yeah, I can't

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imagine being that person villainised for something which of course is so unknown to them

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or was just randomly coming out of the blue. It's not predicted. It's not something that

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you can see coming. Yeah, and we do sit all the time, you know, things like, you know, helping

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a missing persons cases, the tick tock phenomenon, the detectives, the ghost hunters. Yes.

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Really sort of out there looking at the data and pulling enormous amounts of views and followers.

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So there is something compelling about Open Source

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and group work. The case to be involved, oh, I've seen this online, so I've got to give

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my view and opinion here. Yes. But I suppose it can be a negative. Yes.

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Again, just saying this is my view can be quite damaging, I suppose, especially where perhaps

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it should be a professional or someone who perhaps has the background knowledge expertise

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to answer. Yeah. And someone who's conscious of critically looking at the material they're

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looking at because there is so much misinformation out there. I do think there are some very good

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centres, like Bell and Kat and so on, where you can kind of, you know, there are several.

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You know, like that now where you know it's fact-checked. Yes. And we do need to, in order to

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believe things and act upon them, we should check they're true. I wonder what level of information

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in the future will be misinformation because of course it's so high now already. I wonder

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if using an example, you have an AI giving you that misinformation, obviously I know it exists

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now, but on mass, you have the AI giving you the miss information to which the general public

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take as, that must be gospel, that must be fact. Yeah. And I can't imagine that's going

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to be a wonderful one. And what do we do at that point? Is there a way to come back from

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that, do you think? I think a lot of it's about digital, interesting, I really, really

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do, and critical thinking because we need to fact-check, we need to stop and wait a beat,

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you know, if you have an emotional reaction to something you see online, it's really important

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not to react automatically or immediately because it's probably what's been engaged with its,

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not your thinking, it's your feelings. Yes. So digesting all the information first and

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then react. But we are also really susceptible, you know, as human beings, whether or not we're

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critical human beings who kind of are waiting that beat, you know, every human being is susceptible

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to what's called a pattern hunger. So when you have a lot of open source data or OSINT,

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which is really gone Ive seen a lot on baseball caps recently, so it's clearly a growing movement.

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We look for patterns in the data, you know, like we look for patterns in clouds, I know that's

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quite a cheesy kind of comparison to make, but we look for patterns, we think we're seeing

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them. And most of us, if we were not triangulating our beliefs or our findings with at least one

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other person, would make erroneous conclusions about a pattern in the data.

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Do you think then that the ability for someone to critically think is being reduced because

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we have an acceptance to view what we see in front of us in that digital space?

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I think unless we've got methods and tools and a strategy by which to look at the data,

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and we are sticking to those steps and we are checking with other people, I think it is

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very easy to come to the wrong conclusions. You know, more than one mind is necessary.

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I think unless you've got a programme that's got sort of pre-programmed parameters, it's

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looking at stuff, but we will, we will see what patterns. This is the problem with surveillance

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generally, you know, when we talk about where is the line, you know, I think the line between

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watching and surveillance is a really fine line. And for individuals, the minute they start,

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not just noticing, but interpreting, assigning motives to people, constructing a case about

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them, that they have completely constructed themselves and are projecting onto someone else.

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You know, at that point, you are no longer just watching. And you may make all sorts of

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erroneous judgments about this person, what they are like, what they are doing, what they

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deserve. Yeah, I think we've got to be really careful. But there is also the thing that if

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you get involved in this stuff, you draw erroneous opinions, but they are funny.

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You know, you get all of that social validation, you know, from the group from whom you want

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respect, you know, from that, that herd. So it's a really compelling environment. You've

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got all this data, you can impose patents on it that kind of basically are projected from

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you. And you get validation and social sort of affirmation. So it's a really compelling

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thing. It reminds me of the deviance and purification cycle in the sense that once

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it's there, it's in that circle and it's just going to amplify and amplify because it's

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sort of to use a better tern for it, it's kind of everyone saying the same thing or it gets

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escalated and therefore before you know it, that as you say is implanted onto someone else

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accepted, oh, I'll go with the herd on this. The lack of critical thinking doesn't question

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it or perhaps review what there is. And then it just changes into something else.

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Yeah, you're making me think here, I mean, it's probably because there tonight there is

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an episode of celebrity traitor. And that's clearly the high point in my day. I might be

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alone in that. I don't know. This herd thinking where it's not just sort of a critical evaluation

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of information that make you less susceptible to the herd. It is a sense of personal agency

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and a sense of personal worth. And I think we need to build this in people. So you look

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at celebrity traitors, for example, they will often vote, everyone might vote for someone

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else to be evicted. I'm sorry if we're kind of excluding you from the conversation Would you like to give

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a kind of an, outline of what celbrity traitors is before I carry on. I, I, I, I, tell you waht,

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what, why don't we hear from you actually go, go on, lay it all.... So celebrity traitors

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obviously popular at the moment. celebrities on the show where one person nominated a traitor

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and then essentially, I don't know the rest of it in's and outs, but as far as I'm concerned,

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I'm, I'm literally just learning. I'm only four episodes into the whole, the whole kind

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of concept. Oh, you could probably tell me more. Okay. It's, it's, it's basically where three

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people are selected as traitors who will, who will gradually one by one pick off the faithfulls

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 And obviously they want to find the traitors so they're not kind of, you know, killed

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in their beds, which they're not killed. They've just given a letter and sent home. And

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their agents probably thinking, damn, they're not going to get the full, the full, the full

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wack. But you've got no information to go on because they've literally just been nominated

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by the host. Okay. No data. But people have strong opinions. And that's basically, I think

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based on like or dislike. So right. And when you watch the, the episodes that are made

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with the general public, quite often one person will be dominant in that group. And the, the

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herd will be swayed. They will all end up voting for the same person. Sure. But if you

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look at the celebrity one, almost everyone has their own idea of who is based on no data,

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but they believe it is the right person. Yes. And they will stick to their guns. They

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won't be swayed by the herd. And that has to be about a theme of self worth. Right. Or

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experience of being validated by others as an individual. Sure. So I think, you know, to

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resist misinformation, to resist the negative effects of the herd, it's not just critical

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digital literacy. It is about working on everyone's feeling of self worth because every individual

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matters, you know, where do we build that in more? That actually everyone is worthy of an

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opinion. And everyone is valued. Absolutely. Everyone's voices is valuable as the next.

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Yeah. Absolutely. It's quite interesting when you say about celebrity traitors because I

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think the pictures of Alan Carr sweating coming to mind in the article recently, the assumptions

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on everyone's going to think I'm a traitor just because of my natural disposition. I'm

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sweating a lot. Well, thank goodness there arent too many menopausal

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 women on there because we'd all be voted off. Who do you want to get through before?

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I mean, I'm just so I'm watching it. It was almost like watching sort of something under a microscope.

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I'm just watching it all was such interest. I don't however it unfolds. It would be wonderful.

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Part of the drama, how it unfolds. So obviously many crimes we call cyber, cyber fraud,

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cyber stalking, cyber harassment. They obviously existed long before the internet. What

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truly then makes a crime perhaps cyber enabled rather than just something that occurs digitally

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or in a digital form? Yeah. Well, you've got kind of, I think the classic split, the

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language in the jargon evolves all the time. So, I'm sorry if I'm out of date here, but I

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still work with the cyber enabled and the cyber dependence distinction. So cyber

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dependent is where the crime couldn't happen unless there was technology. Right. So it's

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often a machine to machine so it might be things like hacking because you can only hack a computer,

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you can't hack a person with a computer. Sure. So it might be, you know, things like

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DDoS, you know, the sort of attacks. They are cyber dependent crimes, machine to machine

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through a network. Everything else pretty much is cyber enabled. IE, it's about how technology

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changes the scale and the capability of the crime. So fraud and scams, you know, their cyber enabled

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now, harassment stalking, child sexual exploitation, hate speech, very topical. All of those things,

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image-based sexual abuse, you know, sexual abuse, unfortunately has always occurred, but now

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there is an additional sort of tool, you know, which is image-based. And I suppose then it is

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another case of being able to look at the original aspects of the crime, how it's forming,

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how a new motive and technique can advance into a cyber enabled crime and then being able to

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perhaps tackle it on both fronts in that sense because I'm sure, you know, we sort of mentioned

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a couple of topics there where it becomes cyber enabled. It's a lot more difficult to track in that

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sense. Whereas the human side, there might be perhaps more of a trail physically. And so I can

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imagine that could be quite difficult when a crime perhaps transcends into being cyber enabled.

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Do you have to completely, because I know you work with, obviously with a lot of investigators and

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and sort of police with techniques, does it, does it completely uproot how they deal with it?

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Just because it's turned cyber enabled or is it kind of a transition into, we've tackled it on

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the human front, we're looking at the cyber side now, or is it one and the same?

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It's interesting you say that because I think

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digital evidence, although it's often transient, it can be altered, it can be all removed.

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So it's got to be collected quickly. Yes. But you are more likely to leave a residue

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of criminal behaviour online than you are offline to some extent. That you can literally track

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people's behaviour, but you are relying on having a really technically informed cyber investigator

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or a police officer who has those skills. I think it has improved a lot, quite a lot of people

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used to shy away from it the minute it was cyber because they just felt these deskilled.

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But actually you've got a very rich scene of evidence to pull on from cyber communications,

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digital communications. It's interesting. I think less and less, we're separating things like

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in harassment and stalking, where not separating physical and cyber in the same way as we did.

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Because basically, things like stalking, every case has a cyber element now.

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Of course it does, because we are so dependent on it. It's at everyday life, isn't it?

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So yeah, yeah. And so I guess it's how it comes around to the case prosecution or the evidence

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putting it all together. As you say, there's no longer that separation of here's what they did

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physically is what these... It's all one. It would be part of the evidential your case.

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Right. But it's one of those things again, we were talking earlier about how

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technology and automation is really helpful in some ways, but it doesn't always match human experience.

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So for example, for an investigator trying to compile the evidence of a case of cyber stalking,

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they might have 20,000 screenshots and messages to report to deposit, to construct one human being

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has to pull that together. Some of the systems support them, some of them don't, but we're still

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looking at one human being who's having to work through a volume of evidence in cyberhouse.

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There is so much greater than it would have been if it was just physical stuff.

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That's amazing. That's fascinating.

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I think it's obviously a case may come to a point where there isn't actually a physical

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presence. A cyber-enabled crime is truly demonstrated through the evidential chain of cyber-related

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documents, testimonies, whatever it may be. So do we then get to a point where

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everything is just cyber-orientated? Are you, for example, a crime when committed? There isn't a

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human element involved anymore. It is someone who has orchestrated this truly through

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whatever technologies or systems that they utilise and how do we then combat that?

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Tough one. That was a little bit... Look at what they hit the headlines every week, don't they?

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It's people who are bringing down whole systems through hacking, which is cyber-dependent, obviously.

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The NCA published figures, didn't it? It's last year that most of them are teenagers,

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and they're bringing down these multinational stuff, which is kind of thing. This is what we need to work

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on, building that confidence, building that idea of maybe challenging engagement in cyber-world

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can be one about a protective action, how can we beat the hackers? How can you be the one to work

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out, where the back door is, so you can protect it? I do think there is a real need to engage people.

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I think I cant remember in which company was, but they were talking about ethical hacking.

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I think most of the companies are looking at this now, but they'll invite these people with the talents

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to say, "Hey, come and destroy our piece of work here. We want to see what the problems are."

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And there's probably a job for you at the end of it. What a wonderful motive to bring out those

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people who are looking at going into the darker side. The very people who's career-opportunity 

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is taking them to push through lines, break through security walls. These are the people who

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may well respond to those sort of calls. I think there are some, arent there, I can't remember ,Ive wirtten them down.

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There are a couple of initiatives out there that have been put together by the NCA,

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that are deliberately trying to involve young people in sort of ethical hacking,

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getting involved in that. And you think, "Yeah, let's just push more of that."

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Absolutely. It's not going to be about baseball camps at the weekend,

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anyone. This is what a lot of people want to be doing.

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And opening that door to the conversation as early as possible again is that important thing,

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isn't it, before they go off and see something that perhaps they shouldn't, which then leaves them

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onto a path of, "I can apply this in a criminal world, and do what I want to do, perhaps, so interesting."

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So, if online crime that operates through networks rather than hierarchies,

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how does that sort of change our whole idea of investigation and prevention?

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OK I mean, this again, it's quite interesting. It's about distributed systems, isn't it?

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That people aren't connected in a hierarchy. There are a series of loose connections

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and associations, so there isnt a boss at the top, quite often, in a lot of crime.

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So, if it's operating through networks rather than hierarchies,

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there has been a rearrangement of the criminal world since this has started.

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And these networks are resilient and they're agile because if one node gets taken out, the whole thing

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doesn't collapse because there are series of loose connections. So, the only way really to investigate

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things like that is through mapping the connections, mapping that association in order to try and understand

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what's happening. So, investigators need to map ecosystems, rather than identify kingpins,

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where crime is based entirely online in this way. And they will be probably problems of jurisdiction.

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Some people might be in Manchester, some people might be in America, some people might be in Russia,

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who knows, but they will be distributed around the world. So, mapping that ecosystem is important,

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but then the jurisdictional challenges of doing that work are enormous.

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Yes, it becomes much more international than ever before.

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Yeah, I could imagine. And how you pinpoint where these cells groups, wherever they might be,

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how they operate, blurs the lines completely again, most one person who may

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distinctly be in the group chats or the logs or whatever it may be, as someone who has the

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position of authority could just be a figurehead in an entire operation. So, I could imagine,

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again, another layer of trying to peel back the true origins of the group of the crime.

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Yes. And do they know who each other are? Exactly.

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Exactly. Exactly.

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So, I mean, you've got a philosophical shift in the way it's kind of structured.

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You've got a change, necessary for investigation and police.

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And it's just about understaiding who's in the loop, really. Maybe no one's in charge.

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It's all just going around in the circle and there are no orders.

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I think the challenges are enormous, but it also means that sort of, you know,

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investigators have a changing skill set, you know, they need to be able to be data scientists and

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behavioral analysts, you know, not just sort of those investigative skills.

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Yes.

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Yes, problems solving  now, incorporates analysis, not only just how can we get from A to B and solve

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the problem, but what are the underlying factors here which could help answer something a bit

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more grandiose here in terms of motive, in terms of how they deliberately approach this

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through criminal ways, utilising technology in doing so.

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Yes.

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So, fascinating.

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And I do, I mean, this is a shout out to all the police analysts out there who I think are

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the unsung heroes in crime at the moment. You know, they, they often work in isolation because

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there's only funding, say one or two, but they can find you the answers, you know, when you,

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if you are able to engage with them.

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And I just think their contribution to police and crime is often under-recognised

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and certainly underfunded because they have those skills we're talking about, you know, they can

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map things, they can, they can identify patterns because they will construct parameters that

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won't distract them and they will do systematically, so they are, they are great people.

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As you , say the unsung heroes.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Fascinating.

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So, how then does online misogyny function as both sort of ideology and crime and sort of

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going back to how we were talking about teaching to look out for the signs? How would,

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how would you help people to try and recognise this when they're seeing it?

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Okay, do we want to start with the ideology and the crime or how to recognise it?

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We would do like to...

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Let's, let's do the ideology, I think, I think would make sense.

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Well, you know, there is an ideology behind it which is kind of what makes it

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sort of so dangerous, like many forms of terrorism have an ideology behind them,

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you know, and this is a belief system that frames women as inferior or deceptive or dangerous.

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And there is a movement around it, but it's often dressed up as self-improvement about maybe men's

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rights, you know, the word incel is embraced by some and rejected by others.

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And it's a language that's full of hierarchy, you know, Alphas, beta's, high value, low value,

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and those are assigned to individuals, you know, and internalised.

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So what happens is people who identify with that kind of incel-thinking is that it gives them

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an identity and an explanation for failure. Right. So it's not me, it's the system that's stacked

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against me. Right. It's these sort of these terrible women or diversity or inclusion

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that's keeping me down. And what happens is that shared grievance becomes amplified and is rewarded,

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expression of hostility and grievance is rewarded. Right. Expressions of empathy are kind of rejected.

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So there is again this kind of amplification and the building up of this grievance that becomes a

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shared identity in a shared language. But it's also a crime space. Yes. So when that ideology

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justifies acts that spill into the criminal or the violence or harassment or coordinated

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pylons, for example, that's when you kind of tipped into the crime area where that dialogue

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is justifying acts of crime. And certainly, you know, we have seen cases, there are cases around

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where there are certainly crimes that are motivated by misogyny. I think the problem again is that

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those people who perhaps not saying they necessarily had those views in the first place, but perhaps

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have had thought it or radicalisation. And having that point of view demonstrated through

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the tiktok, ..oh they're, saying exactly what I'm thinking must be right then.

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I must be right. This must be the viewpoint that I'm not being taught at in education, of course,

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because it's a wrong view, but it's something that is inherently wrong from the offset

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becomes that gospel conversation of this is what I know, this is what it's being said,

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it must be true. Yeah. This explains everything happening to me. Yeah. And it's interesting

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though that, as you say, it becomes that conversation of me versus the world, because the world is wrong.

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And they can take the standpoint of, I'm here to change the world into something which is better,

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when actually the better is quite a few paces behind where we are now and going in the wrong direction.

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And that self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps, then, of instilling, yeah, this is how I'm going to do

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right, is how I  change when you completely barking up the wrong tree, let's say. Yeah.

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Its fascinating, fascinating. So then how does that change our idea of investigation and

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prevention then would you say, difficult, I imagine, because you're dealing with that self-belief of

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people who kind of go ... as I said before about their bubble being burst, truth and reality

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put in front of someone, but because it's a warped mentality, which is instilled by this herd mentality,

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you're not going to change my view. It's kind of saying, yeah, good luck trying to change it. I'm so

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engrossed in this now. There's no way to step down and step back from the platform.

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Yeah, I think it is really difficult, and I know there is some work that is being done,

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it has been done with people who have become radicalised as incels that has been quite affective.

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And it really is quite core work, working with attitudes and things about self-worth,

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because the grievance comes from a place of feelings of injustice, of self-loathing,

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there are lots of things that can be worked with there, so there are real movements to try and

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intervene. But there are also people in that group who are not just vulnerable individuals,

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they want to hurt people, and I think it's really difficult to identify who those dangerous actors are,

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but the same sort of methods of detection and sort of assessment can apply here as well.

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There will be a lot of people in that forum who are affected, who are radicalised,

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but there will only be a handful who are dangerous individuals.

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Right.

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Their message, however, is generally damaging and dangerous, so I'm not saying

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that they're not dangerous because they are dangerous. The fact is affecting

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public narrative attitudes to women, that these may be the first influences,

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a lot of young men have about women that may form their opinions and therefore their treatment

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of women. That is terrifying.

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It is. It really is. And I suppose it's again the control,

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because how can we police such a space where it's all out there, and as we've said earlier today,

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once it's out there, there's no kind of getting it back.

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And how do we disrupt those networks?

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As they're distributed?

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Yes, yes. And once it becomes,  sort of to use it a cult following, if you will,

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has it already been gone beyond that the realms of being stopped, and is it a case of just trying

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to minimise the fallout of that?

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I mean, I'm a big believer in everything goes round a cycle, not everything just grows exponentially

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forever. I do think there is ebb and flow, and I'm always an optimist that things can be pulled back,

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that things can be improved, even if it's only for a temporary time before it comes again.

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Before something else changes and takes us back, but you know,

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I do think, you know, there are things that can be done, and you know, like,

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we're all over things like, you know, other forms of terrorism, and there have been,

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you know, really effective interventions, you know, and in my view, this ideology is just as

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damaging as those forms of terrorism, and I'm certain that similar principles can be applied.

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Yeah, it's a very interesting, because I wonder what the next sort of

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i would incel group be, for example, you know, we've heard the news on the anti-Semitism, the rise of

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far right, for example, what would be the next thing obviously it's hard to predict, and

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no one probably should ever predict, because then that might give someone an idea, but

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I wonder is there going to be a point where there is a breaking point, where the ceiling has been met,

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and there is no more space for these views, or people perhaps seeing it's been quite intolerable of

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that difference. Does it all sort of implode at that point? It's hard to say, isn't it?

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Well, we see eruptions, don't we? Things like, Southport, you know, where it's a similar expression,

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isn't it, where there's a shared grievance, you know, my life is terrible. I feel lesser.

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So do I, so do I, so do I, we have the shared grievance, and it's their fault,

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and whoever's fault is seems to change in terms of public consciousness, and we did see,

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we have seen it erupt from time to time recently, and we know a lot of that was

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accelerated by social media. Yes, and misinformation is part of it, isn't it?

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Because that shared grievance, that emotional contagion doesn't take a few weeks to build in a

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group where you meet up once a week, it can happen in hours or overnight through social media, where

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a post is put down that people respond to emotionally, they think that sounds the same for me.

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I'm furious, we have a shared mission, and we have identified the group who we are blaming.

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And it's dangerous, really dangerous, and terrifying for the groups who are caught in  those crosshairs.

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And I think it will always be difficult for introducing someone to an online space, and as you say,

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I think that the important thing is to have conversations on this, you know, just to say,

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you're going to see these things, you're going to hear about these things, it might not even be a human

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behind that comment, that message, the bots, and how do we teach young people who are already

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so exposed to that? There would  have been a policy.... 

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Through conversations, I mean, I would love to be in a position where I could sit alongside

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people who are not my age group, who are not my demographic.

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For a day, and just sit with them and observe the stream they're getting.

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Because I am certain their reality, their social media reality, their news reality,

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is entirely different from mine.

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Yes.

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I mean, we know about these sort of echo chambers, but I bet, yeah, I bet your data from the moment

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you wake up and you start looking at those reels, everyone's day is very different.

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So we need to maybe be sharing our personal experiences of our online feeds,

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so we can talk about it.

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Yes, to have analysis and conversation on the differences and the things to be aware of.

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It's like, why are you angry about this thing? Why are you concerned about this thing?

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Why are you furious with these people?

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Well, if we could see what everyone else is seeing day by day, we would understand

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what was on their minds and why.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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And then being able to plan and tackle and look at that, I'm always just envisioning taking away

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the phone of a young person just to say, no more time tonight.

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You've had to time.

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So very interesting.

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So obviously, we've talked quite a lot then about the current sort of aspects in place,

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current laws needing to keep up with the digital world and environment.

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What really can be done, because obviously policing it, as we've discussed, is difficult.

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Can we really deter cyber enabled crime or does the digital environments  undermine

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traditional deterrents?

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I think deterrents much harder to make visible,

377

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yes, to make apparent.

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You know, we talked about the lack of an effective guardian in the online space.

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Yes.

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It's true.

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There is a lack of an effective guardian.

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I think we can teach individual literacy skills.

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I think we have to push much, much harder for responsible design.

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I really do.

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We have to have many, many more conversations with industry about how it's designed.

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And we have to have dialogues, I think, in the family.

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You know, it goes back to sort of that early modelling of what is trust.

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You know, how do we manage our online lives and our privacy?

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So I think it comes from the family and just accepting the fact that actually

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communication in intimate spaces like in families isn't just physical.

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It's in digital spaces.

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So how do we show trust through digital connections with family and children?

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How do we respect privacy in that way?

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It's like, I don't know, again, I'm going to use another crass analyses,

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sort of analogy. With children, you expect them to close their doors

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to you and have privacy, you know, as they get that little bit older and they're not

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likely to fall out of the cot and stuff like that.

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And yet we have access to their phones.

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And actually, it's the same relationship.

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You know, how do we negotiate those thresholds and separateness?

401

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So I think there's a lot of that happening.

402

00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,800

I mean, there are so many forms of prevention for cybercrime that we could go on about, but

403

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I do worry about the lack of an effective guardian.

404

00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,800

Yes. I think you're so right, as well, because the conversations don't tend to happen.

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I think about my conversations being a younger person years ago being introduced to technology,

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the kind of safety and the guidance we talk about now.

407

00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,760

Never really existed when the internet was first coming to light at all.

408

00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,200

You know, it was a wonderful tool and hey, look, there's going to be another world to go out there and

409

00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:50,760

view. And now it seems like I'm in a position where every article, perhaps I view, I'm always thinking,

410

00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,240

I probably should go look at another new source just to see if I'm getting the right facts here,

411

00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:58,600

or to see someone else's point of view on how it's reported.

412

00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:04,520

And while of course my job in the  work I do is giving me that mind and platform to do so,

413

00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:11,400

not many people are given that guidance at a young age and certainly having that open dialogue,

414

00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:17,800

I think from day one, would have shaped my narrative a lot quicker than it does now.

415

00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,480

So yeah, early introduction, isn't it? Just speaking to people about it and talking about it,

416

00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,080

we have to talk about it. We can't just sit here and accept now.

417

00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:34,040

It's too far evolved, perhaps, to not have these important conversations.

418

00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,000

Do you think they'll ever happen with the big industries, the operators and all of it?

419

00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,560

I live in hope.

420

00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,400

I'm with you.

421

00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,880

I'm with you.

422

00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,840

It's, yeah, it would be a difficult one. But then again, those landscapes may change again

423

00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,320

and new people coming to the forefront we might be able to speak with about it.

424

00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:58,520

Yes, yes.

425

00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:59,960

Excellent. Excellent.

426

00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:07,560

Professor Short, it's been wonderful speaking with you and I'm looking at the time here thinking

427

00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,480

I have engagements later, I just want to cancel the whole lot and continue speaking with you quite

428

00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:18,840

frankly. We're kind of like to end episodes talking about the next generation, how people can

429

00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,480

get involved in things like that. Obviously you're a professor and your work has been here for a number

430

00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:30,600

of years. What perhaps is your message for anyone wanting to explore these realms of cyber psychology

431

00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,880

or want to hear more from you? What perhaps can they go and listen to and read about?

432

00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:44,440

I've got some, I've got papers published but they're really boring and often behind paywalls

433

00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,200

unfortunately because that's how academic publishing works. I don't know, I should do, I should

434

00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,760

do some more podcasts. I'm always open for people to get in touch. I think if you're interested in

435

00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:01,400

this area, doing a psychology degree, check out whether they're doing a cyber psychology module.

436

00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,480

London Metropolitan does. Indeed.

437

00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:06,360

Indeed.

438

00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,120

It's because I think it is fascinating but also you will find in this community in cyber psychology

439

00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:18,600

because it's quite a young feel. There are so many people who are really generous with knowledge sharing

440

00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:25,720

and are open to conversations and will answer questions. I've got stuff out there that's

441

00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:30,200

probably around, you can Google me and if you wanted to read about this where I've given commentary.

442

00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:36,600

But yeah, I think just look around. Check out some of the BPS websites,

443

00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:43,240

British psychological website for cyber psychology. Just do a bit of exploring because it's

444

00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:49,080

a really exciting feel because it's young again you can make it your own, pursue the interests you have.

445

00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:55,320

In the online environment, there isn't a standard. So many avenues to explore. So many avenues.

446

00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,520

Fantastic. Thank you again for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.

447

00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:01,400

Thank you. Thank you.

448

00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:08,920

Hear our Detective Diaries episode on the crossover between police and private detectives in the UK.

449

00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:15,080

Available now on Spotify and Apple podcasts. People think it's just like the movie's Harry kicking

450

00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:21,640

down doors with a warrant. But in the private sector, we don't have that blue light privilege. We have

451

00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:27,240

to be smarter. Exactly that Nigel. When I started learning the ropes, the biggest shift was the

452

00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:32,520

unlearning. You realize your baseline isn't just about what you can do legally, but is it moral?

453

00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,960

Is it ethical? Yeah, and the results are often faster. A client calls because they've been waiting months

454

00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,960

for a police update on a fraud case or waiting for the SOCO to get back to them. We can pivot,

455

00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,880

get boots on the ground while the official paperwork is still being filed. It's about bridging that gap

456

00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,440

between public duty and private results. We're picking up exactly where they leave off,

457

00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,920

whether it's corporate surveillance, forensic investigation or international tracing.

458

00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:06,680

It's a different world entirely. This is Detective Diaries. Listen now on Spotify or Apple

459

00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:12,520

podcasts. There's a link in the notes below this trailer. Hi, I'm Professor Emma Short,

460

00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:19,080

cyber psychologist at London Metropolitan University. So come and listen to me talk on Detective Diaries.

461

00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:24,520

We had an incredible hour talking about the online environment, how it may enable crime,

462

00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:30,040

when watching Crosses the Line and perhaps becomes snooping. And also what happens when the crowd

463

00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,920

takes control of an investigation.

464

00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:42,120

Get involved Detective Diaries is interactive, which involves you, the listener.

465

00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:47,240

Do you have a case you'd like to discuss? A burning question about investigative life?

466

00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:53,560

Send an email to podcast@private-detectives.co.uk or reach out via social media.

467

00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:59,640

You may hear your story featured in an upcoming episode. Don't forget to leave your contact details.

468

00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,720

The email address is in the show notes.

469

00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:16,040

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast, brought to you by answers investigation and UK fingerprint.

470

00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,600

If you've enjoyed our conversation and want to learn more about the fascinating world of

471

00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:26,840

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472

00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:32,040

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477

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To find out more, visit www.private-detectives.co.uk. That's a minus sign,

478

00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:09,640

and www.ukfingerprint.co.uk. These are your go-to resources for investigative

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480

00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:24,040

Thanks once again for tuning in. Until next time, stay curious and keep seeking the

481

00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:30,280

truth

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00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:40,280

[BLANK_AUDIO]

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