Television
Radio
Exhibitions and Business News
In this episode of Detective Diaries, Harry Watts interviews Professor Emma Short, a leading psychologist with a specialism in Cyberpsychology. Their discussion explores the psychological toll of digital stalking and how modern investigators such as Answers Investigation tackle the problem on behalf of clients who are victims
Hear more from Season 2 of Detective Diaries on Spotify and Apple Podcasts
Hear this interview on Spotify
----------
Hear this interview on Apple Podcasts
----------
In Part 2 of this podcast, Harry and Professor Short examine second-tier investigations, online profiles becoming the 'crowd', Artificial Intelligence misinforming and the lack of critical thinking in the digital space, cyber-enabled crime and how online deterrence is difficult with no guardian in that space
Hear more from Season 3 of Detective Diaries on Spotify and Apple Podcasts
Hear Part 2 on Spotify
----------
Hear Part 2 on Apple Podcasts
----------
Investigative help for victims of Stalking that identifies the perpetrator and helps it to stop
Sophisticated analysis and technical interrogation of Computers from laptops to PCs to tablets and more
Interview with Professor of Criminal Investigation Raymond Bull on witness interview practices
Profile of Private Detective Harry Watts, together with links to other podcasts in this series on investigation topics
More podcasts to explore from Detective Diaries on Spotify, Apple Podcast and all platforms
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,480
[MUSIC PLAYING]
2
00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,480
Welcome to Detective Diaries, brought to you
3
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,360
by Private Detective's Answers investigation.
4
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,080
If you're captivated by the art of deduction,
5
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,960
the thrill of solving unsolvable, or the enigmatic world
6
00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:21,360
of private investigation, you have just
7
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,280
found your new favorite podcast.
8
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,360
Detective Diaries are where secrets are unraveled,
9
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,800
and the truth is always a clue away.
10
00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,800
Presented by Private Detective Answers investigation.
11
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,960
Each episode contains of big conversations
12
00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,640
about the real people involved in investigation.
13
00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,120
[MUSIC PLAYING]
14
00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:50,320
Welcome to Detective Diaries, the podcast
15
00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,480
where we explore the real stories, science,
16
00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:54,880
and psychology behind investigation.
17
00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,840
I'm your host, Harry Watts.
18
00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,480
A detective once told me people lie in person, but online,
19
00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:02,280
they reinvent themselves.
20
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,000
We delve today into the world of cyber psychology,
21
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,280
how our behavior changes when we move online,
22
00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:08,840
and what that means for investigators
23
00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,440
trying to separate truth from fiction in the digital age.
24
00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,240
After all, every case has clues, but these days,
25
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,000
many of them are digital.
26
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,040
Joining me is Professor Emma Short, a leading
27
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,960
cyber psychologist at the London Metropolitan University.
28
00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,440
Her research focuses on online behaviour, harassment, identity,
29
00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,080
and the psychology that drives both victims
30
00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,920
and perpetrators of digital crime.
31
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,320
For two decades, Emma has been at the forefront of research
32
00:01:34,320 --> 00:01:38,000
into online abuse, cyber stalking, and digital harassment,
33
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,240
exploring how people communicate, deceive,
34
00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,160
and sometimes inflict harm in the digital world.
35
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,400
Professor Short is a co-founder of the National Center
36
00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,680
for Cyber stalking Research, one of the first dedicated teams
37
00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,560
to study the psychological impact of online harassment
38
00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,840
and the behavior of offenders.
39
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,600
What makes her perspective so valuable for investigators
40
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,400
is that she bridges two worlds, the human and the digital.
41
00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,800
She looks beyond the data and the devices to the psychology
42
00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,880
behind them, why people act differently online,
43
00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,440
how identity can be manipulated, and how empathy and ethics
44
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,160
come into play when working in this space.
45
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,280
Professor Short, thank you very much for joining me.
46
00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:17,800
Thank you very much.
47
00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,200
Wonderful.
48
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,560
So cyber psychology is probably a term
49
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,920
that perhaps is known to some in the educational world,
50
00:02:27,920 --> 00:02:31,360
but to those who don't, can you define it a little bit
51
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,720
for us and tell us more about it?
52
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,160
Yeah, I mean, there are various definitions,
53
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,480
but I tend to think of it as the study of how humans engage
54
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,560
with digital technologies, how they affect our thoughts,
55
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,520
feelings, and emotions, how our identities
56
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,840
are influenced by them, but also how the environment itself,
57
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,920
once you're through the screen, shapes our behavior.
58
00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:56,440
Fascinating.
59
00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:58,800
So it's perhaps--
60
00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:01,520
obviously, the psychological aspects have been around for quite
61
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,640
some time now being developed, but cyber psychology
62
00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:06,640
is still relatively new in that sense
63
00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:08,960
in terms of it's definitions, perhaps.
64
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,360
Yeah, it's certainly newer, but all of the old standard theories
65
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,960
of human behavior-- they all work there,
66
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,000
but because you've just got human beings online,
67
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,360
that their behaviors often amplified or obscured,
68
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,840
but it's still human beings that you're working with.
69
00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:26,440
Absolutely.
70
00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:27,960
I mean, I've actually been quite fortunate
71
00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,160
to spend a little bit of time with you before,
72
00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,760
speaking today, and obviously, this sounds like your life's
73
00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:34,560
work.
74
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,560
You're so invested in this, and that's really fascinating,
75
00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,960
and lovely to see, because, of course,
76
00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,840
some people may want to touch upon the subject.
77
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,040
Some people may see it as something that's a bit new,
78
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,280
and the old methods are best, sometimes, perhaps.
79
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:50,920
But this is your life's work.
80
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,480
This is something that you've been studying for years,
81
00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,280
and obviously, you still enjoy research, clearly.
82
00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:56,800
Yes.
83
00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,520
Well, I mean, we're fortunate in this field,
84
00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,680
in that it's so fast evolving every day is a school day.
85
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:04,920
(laugh) It's not as if things are staying the same.
86
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,960
So you're continually engaged with new capabilities,
87
00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,400
new scare stories that might hit the headlines,
88
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:13,680
that you haven't thought about.
89
00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,920
But also, going through life stages,
90
00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,560
being a parent and the daughter of an older parent,
91
00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,200
how technology is impact on us, or become unavailable
92
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,960
to us at different stages in our lives.
93
00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,840
I just think there is so much such a rich theme.
94
00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:32,280
It will keep me going, certainly.
95
00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:34,520
beyond retirement.
96
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,520
Well, that's wonderful.
97
00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,440
I really look forward to delving into more on this.
98
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,280
So just before we sort of get into some of the other topics,
99
00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:42,880
though, it's something that's ever expanding.
100
00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,600
Do you think that that is a positive and a negative thing?
101
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,200
Because, of course, research is one of those aspects
102
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:49,600
where it is constantly evolving.
103
00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,360
You constantly have to look at the new topic
104
00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,600
or the new line of research to delve into,
105
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,360
because it's cyber and technology is, of course, evolving.
106
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:01,000
Is there a race, perhaps, here, to get research
107
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,040
up to the standard of whether technology is
108
00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,160
or are we on a back foot here as well?
109
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,160
We're always going to be on a back foot.
110
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,360
To get any research peer reviewed and published,
111
00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,640
you're going to be at least two years behind.
112
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,000
The innovation of it.
113
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,240
But I think there's a dangerous one
114
00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,480
in chasing the next shiny thing.
115
00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,480
As a society and as a researches,
116
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:24,160
I think we do need some stability.
117
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,840
If we just chase the next shiny thing the whole time,
118
00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:29,560
where are we consolidating?
119
00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,200
Where are we getting an overview?
120
00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:32,560
Yeah, that's very right.
121
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,600
I mean, chasing the next shiny thing is,
122
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:40,400
I think it's such a point of look at the materialistic aspects
123
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,320
of technology, the new iPhone every year,
124
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,280
or the new laptop or the new projector.
125
00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:47,760
We're in an educational setting here,
126
00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:49,760
so it could be the same thing.
127
00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,000
So yeah, that is quite interesting.
128
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,200
And I imagine keeping up with that is probably quite
129
00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:56,440
stressful at times.
130
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,680
Yeah, I mean, you can't possibly keep up with it.
131
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,560
I do try and keep up with it,
132
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,360
but I'm very conscious of the fact
133
00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:05,160
that there are whole seams I'm not aware of.
134
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:10,040
And that's why I try very hard to build
135
00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,760
collaborations and to build a network and to be in touch
136
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,640
and share as much as I know with everyone else,
137
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,800
hoping that they will share what they know with me.
138
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,080
So there's a real dialogue going on all the time
139
00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,720
because one person cannot possibly cover all bases
140
00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,760
No matter how much they make it.
141
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:28,760
No.
142
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,640
So obviously, we're talking about cyber,
143
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,560
we're talking about technology.
144
00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,800
The internet is obviously there.
145
00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,200
It's not just a tool.
146
00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,600
It's essentially an environment, additional environment,
147
00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,440
and again, ever changing.
148
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,920
How does that environment change people's behaviours?
149
00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:50,760
And does that make it easier for them to commit crimes, do you think?
150
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:51,600
I think it does.
151
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:57,400
I mean, the thing about the internet is it removes social friction.
152
00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,880
There isn't resistance.
153
00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,840
You know,it's... you don't have to get anywhere.
154
00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:07,120
You don't get put off by the way someone seems to be looking at you.
155
00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,960
You don't experience embarrassment or social disapproval
156
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,440
in the same sort of way.
157
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,760
So the frictions were moved as is the risk of being caught
158
00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,240
if you are actually involved in transgressive behaviour
159
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,480
because yes, there are new laws now.
160
00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:26,640
And there are policies on platforms.
161
00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,680
Platforms often don't stick to their policies.
162
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,920
But with no social feedback and visible consequence
163
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,040
umm... and no physical risk,
164
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,400
you know, to yourself.
165
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,640
umm... It's much easier just, just, just go for it.
166
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,680
Whether that's in expressing opinions you might never express
167
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,120
to other people to their faces, whether it's to take risks
168
00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:52,800
that may be criminal,
169
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:57,120
all of those things become much easier to slide into.
170
00:07:57,120 --> 00:07:59,400
So this has re-shaped a baby to some extent.
171
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,680
If we just think of the heat of debate that you get online.
172
00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,960
It's certainly a mask isn't it, in that sense of the persona
173
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,760
I am perhaps forging here and manipulating is something
174
00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,600
that is very different to how they operate in real life.
175
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,400
The person who's the nice Jim from the office, the user name,
176
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,160
might be someone awful online who's subscribed
177
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,120
into hate speech or whatever it might be.
178
00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,440
So yes, very much a face isn't it, of identity
179
00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,080
that's providing them with anonymity.
180
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:30,080
Yes.
181
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,080
Yes.
182
00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,880
Do you think though it perhaps, kind of using the example that I just said,
183
00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,200
does it give an excuse for people to perhaps develop a second persona
184
00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:44,440
or is it perhaps their true selves coming out online if you will?
185
00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,560
I mean this is a really interesting one.
186
00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:52,920
Some people feel more themselves online than they do offline.
187
00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,480
Some people do produce another personality
188
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,520
and they are consciously doing that.
189
00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,960
And they are being someone very different online.
190
00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,160
And other people are different online,
191
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,040
but they're not conscious of the shift,
192
00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:07,720
their behaviour and their personality.
193
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,480
So everyone is different.
194
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:11,880
But it's a very good place.
195
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,000
I mean, before we get on to the risks and things like,
196
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,840
theories about why it might be escalating crime,
197
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,920
it's also a good thing and that you can experiment.
198
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,640
So for adolescents, for example, you can try out
199
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:34,080
being confident, you can try out being sort of sassy,
200
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,640
you can try out things that don't come to you naturally
201
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:41,840
in your physical environment and see how it feels and work into it.
202
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,920
And there is something I think called,
203
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:45,880
I said the proteus effect.
204
00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:47,880
Well, that's testing me a bit.
205
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:51,080
But it's the one way if you try to be it, you can become it.
206
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,440
So if you behave more confidently
207
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,760
and you get feedback to that persona, which validates that,
208
00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,120
you become more confident.
209
00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,920
So in a lot of ways, it can be very positive.
210
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:05,920
Yes.
211
00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,640
Yes, I know a lot of what we're going to talk about is
212
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,200
perhaps the risk in the dangers, but we should say,
213
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,520
as you rightly put there is quite a good aspect of the research.
214
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,280
Again, we're in an educational setting here.
215
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,720
Fantastic use to be able to have resources
216
00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,400
which perhaps were never there in our breach now.
217
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,040
But of course, with that becomes misinformation.
218
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,760
And again, it's kind of that yin and yang, isn't it?
219
00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:32,920
We're both sides.
220
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,520
We talk about an individual, but I wonder if it's a group mentality as well.
221
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,880
I'm kind of thinking about the particulars of instructions, riots,
222
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,920
and so forth where that herd mentality can come in from one person
223
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,600
posting online to say, let's revolutionize rise up, if you will.
224
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:55,640
Does that change in terms of the psychological elements we're looking at?
225
00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:57,840
Or is it again, just the kind of bandwagon?
226
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,640
I mean, it's old theory, but the expressory new means.
227
00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,280
So you get things like group polarization, group identity,
228
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,200
where what happens if you're expressing at a really extreme view?
229
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,680
There's a real diffusion of responsibility and a need to belong to that group.
230
00:11:13,680 --> 00:11:17,960
So I will go with the herd because I am identifying with the group more strongly
231
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,800
than I am with myself at this point.
232
00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:23,800
But also the group is accountable rather than me.
233
00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:24,520
Right.
234
00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,600
So it's an old set of theories,
235
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,480
probably kind of born out of the 1670s and social psychology.
236
00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:35,200
But you see it played out in an almost kind of perfect illustration
237
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:39,120
that the model itself, you could never see, played out in the physical world.
238
00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:39,640
Sure.
239
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,760
But even if you were just watching the data move,
240
00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,040
you kind of, if you actually modelled it against those sort of flow charts of those models,
241
00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,080
you would literally see it playing out.
242
00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,080
Right.
243
00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,320
First they do so again, but the kind of demonstration of the old research,
244
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:57,160
still applying just in a new format, if you will, of the online space.
245
00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:02,200
Yes, I mean, I really honestly do believe the online environment mirrors an amplified human behaviour.
246
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,800
There are some changes for sure,
247
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,160
but if we were going to use a really kind of gross kind of statement,
248
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,840
you know to kind of like, bring it all You know, that's the phrase I'd go for.
249
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:12,840
Interesting.
250
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,840
It's interesting, isn't it?
251
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:18,400
Because again, even though it's in every expanding and ever new topic,
252
00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,960
we can still find these ways of explaining it because behaviour like that has existed,
253
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:27,600
it's just got a new platform now to operate with, so it's fascinating.
254
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,840
Can you think then people can, in that space, slide into offending almost by accident?
255
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:33,840
Yeah.
256
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:35,640
Does it happen, I'd say, I'd follow that.
257
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,880
I really do, and I'm going to look at my notes here because I go off on all sorts of tandoms,
258
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:41,480
and I try to stick to the point.
259
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:42,480
Of course.
260
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:49,640
There's something called digital drift, which is where there is a gradual slide from curiosity
261
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,680
to wrongdoing, so sort of it's a soft descent,
262
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,600
or you kind of get engaged and you've got this frictionless thing,
263
00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,320
you're exploring, you're pushing further.
264
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:03,200
And it's some work that's been applied to things like youth hackers,
265
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,440
which are quite well researched now.
266
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,440
It's quite interesting.
267
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:16,600
And what happens is the hierarchy, or the sense of higher grade, that achieves,
268
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,640
pushes people more and more into breaking more and more boundaries,
269
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,000
because again, you've got this group dynamic going on,
270
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,640
you've got the digital drift, you've got the excitement of breaking in,
271
00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,600
and validation from that from your network.
272
00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:32,600
Right.
273
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,160
We do know for certain that adolescents in particular,
274
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,800
their approval from peers is the most valuable to them,
275
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,520
not from teachers, no, not from parents,
276
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,120
but having peer status is incredibly important,
277
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,120
and this is where you find your peers as well.
278
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,840
Interesting.
279
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,360
And there's also another theory that I think is really useful
280
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,680
that he applied to the online space,
281
00:13:53,680 --> 00:13:57,400
and that is routine activity theory, and it kind of predicts crime.
282
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,440
And it kind of says, for crime to happen,
283
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,480
you need three things.
284
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,480
You need a motivated offender,
285
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,680
so a curious person who's gone down that rabbit hole.
286
00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:14,320
You need a suitable target, and there are so many online,
287
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:21,400
who are unsecured loads of information about them, visible targets.
288
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:27,280
But the third thing you need is what's called an absence of a capable guardian.
289
00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:31,280
And online, there isn't no visible policing.
290
00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:32,920
Of course.
291
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,480
It's more regulated now than it was,
292
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,880
but it's really still the Wild West, I think, in many ways.
293
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,320
If you're technically skilled, you know,
294
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,800
you can stay under the radar.
295
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:46,160
And it's perhaps even more pointedly demonstrated
296
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:49,960
with the new online safety acts,
297
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,880
restricting access to explicit content for young people.
298
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:58,560
And of course, the rise of VPNs from that is kind of a way round it, isn't it?
299
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:04,880
And in some ways, you've got, you know, you're raising kind of like a moral awareness of that, aren't they?
300
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:08,600
You're kind of making people consciously choose to circumvent something
301
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,920
because there is a stop sign.
302
00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,200
For the majority, I don't know if it's the majority, actually,
303
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,760
but for a lot of people, they will stop there.
304
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:21,000
Or the message has been made that this is a stop sign
305
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:24,000
because this is considered transgressive.
306
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:25,600
Right.
307
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,400
And then it's your decision, do you circumvent it?
308
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,840
I don't know why, but I had the vision in my head of,
309
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:34,760
go back to the sort of sociological studies of the mods and rockers
310
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,920
and how I could potentially apply that in the online space now
311
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:45,480
was having groups of very different opinions and walks of life
312
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:50,120
then clashing over a general view, if you will, or a public view about something
313
00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,680
and then diving into each other.
314
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,480
And not having the, as you say, the sort of police there,
315
00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:00,080
which again, I think about mods and rockers, there was an increase of police presence
316
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,080
in those kind of eras in the online space.
317
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,320
You would call it moderators, but where are they?
318
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,280
If they're not present, they're in the shadows, aren't they?
319
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:09,280
Yeah.
320
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:10,280
They don't exist.
321
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,480
Yeah, so yeah, I think it's easy.
322
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,080
It's easy to do something to cry.
323
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,920
Interesting, interesting.
324
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:21,920
So at what point then does perhaps trying to police the online world,
325
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:26,400
the ordinary boundaries of watching become surveillance?
326
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,600
And are we leaning more towards that again?
327
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,320
Obviously the current topics of conversation being the new digital ID, of course.
328
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:39,560
And I've seen, I think, the most recent article was about 2.8 million petitions
329
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,600
or sign-ees against that as I understand it.
330
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,880
But because we're moving in that technical direction,
331
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,000
is there, has it already been crossed?
332
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:54,440
Are we in the purpose of the non-life space being surveyed too much?
333
00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,040
Or is it not enough still, as we've just said, is there issues of people who aren't
334
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,720
being looked at who are demonstrating psychological, negative, psychological behaviour by mine?
335
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:10,680
I think this is a really interesting one, because we've given our day to away
336
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,400
and allowed ourselves to be subailed by industry and tech.
337
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,400
Right.
338
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,880
Without a second thought.
339
00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:26,680
We've given it all away already, but any state involved, people feel very differently about it.
340
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,680
Yes.
341
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:34,880
Because the day and year is, if we do have access to digital identities,
342
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,040
what are the parameters of the data they have access to and how will technology engage with them?
343
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,600
Because we've given it away already.
344
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:41,600
Yes.
345
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:42,600
Yes.
346
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:48,640
There has to be an intelligent and transparent discussion about what we've let go and what
347
00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,640
they want to see.
348
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:55,200
But the minute you engage in sort of, I don't know, state surveillance like that, you are
349
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,840
dependent on the current regime staying as it is.
350
00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:00,320
You know, and it won't.
351
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,320
No, no.
352
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,640
Because it ever, expanding, ever changing again.
353
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:09,760
So I mean, I think we've crossed the line in what we've given away.
354
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:16,120
But I think it's important that we have a discussion that's not patronising to us as the general
355
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,760
public about what they have, what they want and what it means.
356
00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:20,760
Yes.
357
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,080
Because again, I do think there's some sort of, you know, infantilising going on, you know,
358
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,880
that we're being told very, we're getting in very simple messages about it.
359
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,760
But actually we are, you know, as a society quite technically informed.
360
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,760
You know, you think, can we all talk about, like, grown ups please?
361
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:35,760
Yes, exactly.
362
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,040
Rather than just being a statement, let's delve into it more.
363
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,600
I think you're so right because it's something probably users might think about after that,
364
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,880
but probably don't tend to is when you accept the terms and conditions, there are 2000 pages
365
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,240
of it or whatever it may be, the Facebooks, the Instagrams of this world.
366
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,640
And we simply don't look at those.
367
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,640
We simply hit accept and then of course, that's it.
368
00:18:58,640 --> 00:18:59,640
No.
369
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,640
You know, there's no getting that back is there at that point.
370
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:02,640
It's never one book you're ticking.
371
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,760
But remember, all of those sort of, I can't remember the term for it, but all those cookies with partners.
372
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:07,760
Yes.
373
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,680
You click it, you're actually engaging with about, I don't know, 360.
374
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,680
Yes.
375
00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:13,520
Organizations not just one.
376
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:14,520
And yeah, yeah.
377
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:20,800
And again, it's that kind of backroom, there's no discussion, oh, this is how it is.
378
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,280
This is what you're signed up for.
379
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:27,200
There's no sort of real, I don't know, what's, here's an email telling you what exactly you're
380
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,400
giving away and who you're exactly in it to because of course, I think if many people
381
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,600
had such an email or were informed to such a degree, no one would probably be using
382
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,040
any of these sites and applications.
383
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:38,040
So, no.
384
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:39,040
No, it's interesting.
385
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,480
I mean, I did, it was never published, but I remember reviewing a paper once, I hope it
386
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,640
once, once, it was published one day.
387
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:53,720
They tried to develop a, a scale about paranoia, but technical paranoia about, you know, obviously
388
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:59,680
IT and they've got a general public group and they've got a group of cybersecurity experts.
389
00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:06,640
And the data was just wild because they were only, you know, the data analysts and the, some
390
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,280
security experts understood the real risks and they were just kind of all the scores were
391
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,600
reaching the ceiling the whole time.
392
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,120
They've got no fluctuation in the data from that group.
393
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,600
So, I know, that was one of the problems.
394
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,040
I think they were having it published because the data was, was not undulating.
395
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,040
Right.
396
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,920
There was no normal distribution because they were all just panic and (hahahaha), and rightly so
397
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,920
so?
398
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:30,920
Yes.
399
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,400
And again, it's kind of that rush to get it out there, I suppose, before two years later,
400
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,840
it's antiquated because there's something else that comes along.
401
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,720
So, fascinating, fascinating.
402
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:48,000
How do we start learning this behaviour then in the sense of, you know, what exactly, how
403
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,120
do those behaviours get in terms of online spaces?
404
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:58,640
You know, technology now is being introduced to young people far earlier than it ever has.
405
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,640
So is the behaviour learnt?
406
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,640
We talked about peers obviously and the need of a proof of them perhaps trying to justify
407
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,760
it through that means, but is it something that we learn through perhaps the technology?
408
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,960
Or is it something that we learn from others utilising the technology?
409
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:19,000
That's interesting and I've got a theory I want to look into.
410
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,960
This is not based in any evidence at all.
411
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:30,320
But my thinking is around the fact that in families very early on, children are surveilled
412
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,960
by their parents in a location, trackers, checking their search histories and so on.
413
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,760
And that's often been driven out of fear because of predators online and predators on the
414
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:41,760
street.
415
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:42,760
Right.
416
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,520
And it's protective and the novelty thing to do.
417
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:51,440
But from the word, go, from the word they're engaging in the digital environment, most children
418
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,760
are exposed fully to their parents in terms of their location and their activity and they
419
00:21:56,760 --> 00:22:03,080
become very used to that and experience it as loving concern.
420
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:11,600
So what does that do to someone in terms of their expectations of others' transparency
421
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,080
and their access to all that data?
422
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:19,400
And their acceptance or tolerance of being watched and controlled by others.
423
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:26,040
And I think this generation is different from others because of that.
424
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,800
And I really want to explore that further.
425
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:36,120
But I think the message is it's not necessarily wrong to do it, but there has to be a dialogue
426
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:44,520
while it's happening about trust, about consent, about why it's happening and what it means,
427
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:49,360
because, you know, love isn't looking.
428
00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:54,160
And we do take these early experiences of relationships and attachments into our later
429
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:55,160
attachments.
430
00:22:55,160 --> 00:23:02,400
And being surveilled and watched by a new partner you might meet may mean something entirely different
431
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,920
than loving concern.
432
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:11,840
So I really want to explore that area and talk to people about it and how they feel about
433
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:12,840
it.
434
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,160
It is an interesting, I mean, from an investigation point of view, I can't speak to how many
435
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,720
cases, it's a large significant number of when we're dealing with mobile forensics
436
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:29,440
or assessing someone's online presence that you will see applications like the life 360
437
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,760
or whatever it may be where, partners are constantly tracking each other.
438
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,320
And I can't help but feel like we're, as you say, perhaps there's this acceptance of,
439
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,640
I've already given it over, it's there.
440
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,480
Therefore it's not new to me, it's not a concern.
441
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:52,240
Whereas those who are perhaps not necessarily forced into it or they give it away because
442
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,760
it makes the other person happy in that sense, then they were...
443
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:56,760
Cooersion.
444
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,720
Cooersion, exactly, exactly.
445
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,680
And it's fascinating because again, 10, 15 years ago, we wouldn't have been having this
446
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,320
conversation, we wouldn't have been having this tracking.
447
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,120
And this is why I think technology should mirror more human behaviour.
448
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:12,440
You know, AI is there, it has the capability.
449
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,400
Why aren't people designing things that create things like dynamic consent where it picks
450
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:23,520
up these changes have dropped or they're all one way and consent is just not renewed.
451
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:29,480
It entails out as the actual physical exchanges that is tailing out.
452
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:36,440
These apps can track this kind of thing and they can mirror our intent.
453
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,080
And I just wish more was being done like that.
454
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:44,040
It's like, for example, if you have books, someone or you have defrended them, still,
455
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,840
there'll be a reason for that.
456
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,520
And still, Facebook will then pop them up as a friend and suggestion.
457
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:50,520
Yes, yes.
458
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,320
You know, you think, come on, you've got all the technology in the world, you're collecting
459
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,880
all our data, we are to some extent being manipulated by you.
460
00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,680
Can you not do us the courtesy?
461
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,680
At the very least.
462
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,880
So, I do get really frustrated with it.
463
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:05,880
You're so right.
464
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:14,120
And then, I suppose the other issue comes from, as we've relinquished that control, that
465
00:25:14,120 --> 00:25:18,440
there isn't going to be a coming back from, okay, I have blocked someone and as you say,
466
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,560
you're getting suggested to go back and make friends with them, even if you shout as loud
467
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,200
as you can, because it's controlled that the Silicon Valley is the upper echelons or whoever
468
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,800
it may be, you will never be hurt.
469
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:38,280
And I suppose that could almost mirror a person's case in real life where they perhaps feel
470
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,520
like there is an injustice where, you know, I'm shouting as loud as I can, I'm not being
471
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:47,000
hurt and that's happening on even larger scales on the internet.
472
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,000
Yeah, for sure.
473
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,000
So, if you can hear the background voices, if you're getting a flavour of university
474
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,000
London metropolitan.
475
00:25:54,000 --> 00:26:00,680
A thriving place, it's a wonderful environment here and I suppose it takes me back to Rutz
476
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:05,320
a little bit as a former university student, so it's nice to see everyone enjoying themselves.
477
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:06,800
Well, I've got a question for you.
478
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:07,800
Please.
479
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:14,160
Over the last, say, I don't know, 10 years, five years, has your investigative toolkit changed
480
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:15,680
much because we've got open source data?
481
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,120
We've got all of this stuff that we're talking about.
482
00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:19,600
What's the housing change for you?
483
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,600
Yes, it's quite interesting because I would say more so than ever, a lot of the digital
484
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,560
footprint is available to us than it has been before, whether that be through social
485
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,400
media, whether that be through internet history, mobile phone forensics, the sort of
486
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:39,640
toolkits that we use, there is more of it to look at now and the way I look at this is
487
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,480
kind of like the storage on your phone.
488
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:42,480
Okay.
489
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,240
It used to be that you would have a small hand-held phone and it would have a SIM card and
490
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,960
the phone would work.
491
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:52,280
Now you've got phones which have more storage space than the average computer, you know, I think
492
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,880
an iPhone now goes up to a terabyte or something ridiculous.
493
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,960
And that's so much data there available that you're not going to get from 10 hours of surveillance,
494
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:01,960
20 hours of surveillance.
495
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,920
It's all there in one hand.
496
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:09,640
So the toolkit in terms of how we look at and analyse that data is certainly changed,
497
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,800
forensics software for example.
498
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,160
A lot of what we use is actually in-house because it comes from open source options and we
499
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,200
build up and use it and create something.
500
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,920
But social media, social media is a big one.
501
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,640
I think one of our quickest cases was something around 20 seconds.
502
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:31,360
We had a company phone us up and it was about a gentleman who was claiming sick pay and
503
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:32,360
they questioned it.
504
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:34,000
They said, "He's been off for six weeks.
505
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:35,600
We're pretty sure this is wrong.
506
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:37,360
Is it legitimate?
507
00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,200
Can we go find this out?"
508
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:43,840
We went on his social media page and we found a plane trip to Bali within three seconds,
509
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,840
I think.
510
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,400
And it's in there literally on the plane on a video.
511
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,840
So of course we found the company and we say, "Sorry, this is the truth.
512
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,880
We're not going to charge you obviously."
513
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,640
And perhaps let's have a discussion on the due diligence.
514
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,920
Now, you know, I think everyone's got a right to privacy in having a social media
515
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:01,360
stored by company.
516
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:03,600
To me, it is actually wrong.
517
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,120
However, with that in mind, it probably could have taken someone just a few seconds to have
518
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,880
a look, maybe even just to have a look at this profile to check in on him to send a message
519
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:13,880
or something.
520
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,880
They would have found that information out themselves.
521
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:23,240
But now to come back to your point, how it's changed, it's the digital footprint because
522
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,800
again, with surveillance and with human interaction, it's only part of the coin, how someone
523
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:33,440
interacts online, how they may go and search for something, provides elements and some
524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:34,440
of the motivation.
525
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:39,560
So how we can delve into that data and look at it is quite important to a case.
526
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,080
And again, the tools to do that are, we have to change all the time.
527
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,080
Again, to reference a smartphone, there are securities on that are changing all the time.
528
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,960
Now again, obviously when we utilize these kind of techniques is when we have consent
529
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:55,560
and things to do so.
530
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,680
Now, we've probably seen the cases in America where you've got the federal government versus
531
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,480
a technology company about gaining access.
532
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,120
And so those cases are very interesting to me.
533
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,560
You've got such a large conversation happening on something that is quite important, which
534
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,480
is obviously at the end of the day.
535
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,560
But certainly when we have the consent, when we need to do so, there's quite a few techniques
536
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,760
we can use to get under the hood of these devices and get to the raw data, even deleted
537
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,760
data.
538
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,720
And then we can also, when someone knows something's gone wrong, they tend to try and set
539
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,240
fire to it, go throw it in the bin as quickly as you can.
540
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,000
And we have to go and grab that back before it's lost.
541
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,000
Yes.
542
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,000
Well, that's the thing about digital events, isn't it?
543
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,000
Yes.
544
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,000
It can be so transitory.
545
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,000
Absolutely.
546
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:39,000
Absolutely.
547
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:43,040
And interestingly as well, I mean, we get many people who ask us to do a background check
548
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,400
on them and look at their history and so forth.
549
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,600
And I remember we had this MP obviously, can't say no, come into office one day.
550
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,360
And he was looking to go higher up into power, so local at the time.
551
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,360
And he said, right, I went to go do a deep dive on my history.
552
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,360
I'm a good guy.
553
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,000
I haven't said anything bad on Twitter now X.
554
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,000
So you won't find anything.
555
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,800
You know, he took that attitude.
556
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,520
And then when he came back into the office, we had probably about 100 pages of all the
557
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,880
worst things one can possibly say online, which of course were deleted in his eyes, but
558
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,840
we're found on a server halfway across the road, a halfway across the world saved many
559
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,960
years ago by those people and techniques and machines, which automatically do this and
560
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:27,440
not to put any listeners.
561
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,120
But once you say something, even if you think you delete it, unfortunately, it's probably
562
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,960
still out there backed up somewhere on some server across the other side of the world.
563
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,840
So we can try and look at that data and get that back.
564
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,720
But it can be a longer process as well.
565
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:48,760
I should say surveillance work, you can find your answers very quickly where digital footprints
566
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,960
you might have, I don't know, a company you're looking at, that's 50 to 100 computers.
567
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,600
So that's a lot of time that you need to spend when you, you know, perhaps doing another
568
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:58,600
way could be quicker.
569
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,120
So it depends on the circumstances as to what tools we use, but it's certainly changed.
570
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:07,600
And keeping on top of it now is so important because, again, surveillance, if a camera breaks
571
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,280
you can go and get another one.
572
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,660
If you have to go look into a piece of technology that's got the higher ends of security or other
573
00:31:13,660 --> 00:31:18,080
protections, you're going to need someone who's even more qualified or has even more advanced
574
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,080
tools to do so.
575
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,880
So there are layers to it as well.
576
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,560
So it's not just the manner of the investigation, it's some of the jobs you're getting asked
577
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:25,560
to do.
578
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,720
So being asked, is it a regular thing being asked to clean up someone's digital footprints?
579
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:30,720
Absolutely.
580
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,040
It's more so ever than now.
581
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,920
And then it used to be because, again, that ever expanding digital world and there,
582
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:42,720
perhaps sometimes reluctance to get into it as well is what I have to go and do this.
583
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,080
Can we make sure that I'm safe?
584
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,360
And of course, nine times out of ten most people are.
585
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:52,480
But in the case that I just use, some people will again have that unfortunate view that it's
586
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:53,640
so far gone.
587
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:54,640
It's out of sight.
588
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,520
It doesn't exist anymore when actually put in front of your face.
589
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:58,520
Here it is.
590
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,520
Here's what you said a decade ago and you wouldn't want people reading that now, would you?
591
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,640
So, I can ask you about the flip side of that.
592
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:06,640
Of course.
593
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:11,200
Is it possible to create a fake profile?
594
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:18,640
And if you think someone is targeting you with a profile, how would they detect that?
595
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:22,000
Are there any really good tips?
596
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,160
I think the way to look at it is kind of like a fishing scam.
597
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,320
If you're getting a message from someone who you believe, from the offset, let's say it
598
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,480
looks like your friend, for example, simply popping them a message outside of that would
599
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,360
be faced because something sent in them a text message, you say, "Oh, I've got a message
600
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:38,360
from you."
601
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,360
Was that you?
602
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,840
I'm sure most people, nine times, I said, "Yeah, it is me, don't worry, nothing to fear."
603
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,160
But it's always language, I would say.
604
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,440
Because setting up a fake, if I wanted to become a Donald Trump,you know, to use an example, it probably
605
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,840
would be quite easy for me to create a profile and to put things in place.
606
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,420
The only thing that might be missing is the sort of viewership and the activity and the
607
00:32:59,420 --> 00:33:03,200
subscribers, if you will, because of course one of the most, well-known, if not the most
608
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,240
one, the person there.
609
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:12,680
But how I speak and how I act in an online presence would be up for debate because I don't
610
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,160
think I could do a very good job of pretending to be Donald Trump.
611
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,120
So that kind of language aspect and behaviourisms is the thing that is difficult.
612
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:28,200
So it's probably easier to detect how someone creates a fake profile, hard, because fishing
613
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,720
scams, for example, the only real way I would say is you reverse image searching and that's
614
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:38,200
how we tend to find a lot of fake accounts because they'll use an image which has been used
615
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:44,240
in these fishing scams or similar instances and then you can backtrace it from there and
616
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,680
you can demonstrate that to a client.
617
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,760
But he is still the human nature, so it's so interesting.
618
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:55,040
We had a client once who was a fishing scam and we showed him that it was a fishing account
619
00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:00,360
and he was so in belief that he was talking to a real person that we couldn't pop this
620
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,800
bubble of belief in his head that he was so intrigued, this must be real, but you've got to look
621
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:11,680
again and it's so interesting, no matter what we demonstrated and showed him he was of such
622
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:16,120
belief that he was talking to this person who was real, that he wasn't willing to listen
623
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,320
to anyone else's views on that.
624
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:23,760
So, but yes, I mean to anyone listening, definitely do your research, ask another source, use
625
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,120
reverse image search as well, definitely have a look at the images, obviously that's
626
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:31,200
the point and then have a look at the behaviour of the person who's speaking with you as
627
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,200
well.
628
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,080
I think that's those are really good tips and again I think you know with a little bit of
629
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,760
information like the stuff you give us, you know it really empowers people because I'm
630
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:46,680
very conscious of things like cultural shifts in things like film and television where
631
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,800
I'm saying one of the modern bogeymen is the fake profile attack.
632
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:52,800
Yes, yes.
633
00:34:52,800 --> 00:35:01,440
Where someone malicious approaches you as someone apparently harmless, so many films, so many
634
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,880
TV series have built around this now and I think it does create a real panic.
635
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:05,880
Yes, yes.
636
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:11,080
You saw it because on one side you get the whole romanticism or I've met someone online
637
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,880
and now we're together and that's fantastic.
638
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,200
It works in one of the ways, it works in the total opposite and having due diligence
639
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:25,400
or perhaps thinking twice about a message or what you send to someone, you know I can fire
640
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,720
off the line, I'm off the line like now, the conversations about people meeting up on
641
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:34,600
dating apps and so forth and rightfully they will send their friends, the text message
642
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:39,080
just saying, I'm going here tonight, you know I'm going to be here at this time, that's
643
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,480
brilliant, that's wonderful.
644
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,320
It's a shame we've got to that point where there isn't this element of trust of you
645
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,000
can verify who somebody is through their online presence or there's a way for you to
646
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:54,760
easily determine who you're speaking to is genuine and that is scary environment and to me
647
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,240
personally I think as an investigator it's only going to get worse because the tools
648
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:04,440
for us are expanding obviously AI which I'm sure we're going to touch upon ever increasing
649
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:09,240
tools are probably to the criminals as well and now we use it to develop their own
650
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,640
means and they're the early adopters.
651
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,960
Yes absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, you know they'll find, if it's a wonderful piece
652
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:20,240
it'll take it first, they'll find a way to make it corrupt and then it becomes a game
653
00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,520
of that sort of law enforcement catching up as well in trying to combat that so I can
654
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,120
certainly see from perhaps an educational point of view, we'll talk about policies, it's
655
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,800
got to be so difficult to keep up.
656
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:39,280
Professor Short it's been wonderful speaking with you and I'm looking at the time you're
657
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,720
thinking I have engagements later, I just want to cancel the whole lot, continue speaking
658
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:45,120
with you quite frankly.
659
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,600
We're kind of right to end episodes talking about the sort of next generation how people
660
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,960
can get involved in things like that, obviously your professor and your work has been here for
661
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,080
a number of years.
662
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:02,320
What perhaps is your message for anyone wanting to explore these realms of cyber psychology
663
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,200
or want to hear more from you?
664
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,440
What perhaps can they go and do and listen to and read about?
665
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:17,040
Well I've got papers published but they're really boring and often, often behind paywalls unfortunately
666
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,880
because that's how academic publishing works.
667
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,320
I don't know, I should do some more podcast, I'm always open for people to get in touch.
668
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:31,640
I think if you're interested in this area, doing a psychology degree, check out whether
669
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:36,960
they're doing a cyber psychology module, London Metropolitan does.
670
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:37,960
Indeed.
671
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:43,040
It's been a bit because I think it is fascinating but also you will find in this community
672
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,960
in cyber psychology because it's quite a young feel.
673
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:52,040
There are so many people who are really generous with knowledge sharing and are open to
674
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,800
conversations and will answer questions.
675
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,000
I've got stuff out there that's probably around, you're Google me and you wanted to read
676
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,040
about this where I've given commentary.
677
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:09,520
Yeah, just look around, check out some of the BPS websites, British psychological website
678
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:16,520
for cyber psychology and just do a bit of exploring because it's a really exciting feel
679
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:21,680
because it's young again, you can make it your own, pursue the interests you have in the
680
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:22,680
online environment.
681
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,040
There isn't a standard.
682
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,040
So many avenues to explore.
683
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,040
So many avenues.
684
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:28,040
Fantastic.
685
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:29,720
Thank you again for your time.
686
00:38:29,720 --> 00:38:30,720
It's been a pleasure.
687
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:31,720
Thank you.
688
00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:32,720
I've really enjoyed it.
689
00:38:32,720 --> 00:38:33,720
Thank you.
690
00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:39,480
Hi, I'm Ellie Merton from Guildford Shakespeare Company.
691
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:44,560
Come and listen to me talk all things GSC and murder mystery.
692
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:50,720
We've performed in Stately Homes, in Castles and even on a Boeing 747.
693
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:58,160
Listen in on Detective Diaries.
694
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:03,320
(music) Get involved Detective Diaries is interactive which involves you, the listener.
695
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:08,640
She have a case you'd like to discuss, a burning question about investigative life, send an
696
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:14,840
email to podcast@private-detectives.co.uk or reach out via social media.
697
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,400
You may hear your story featured in an upcoming episode.
698
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,840
Don't forget to leave your contact details.
699
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:31,840
The email address is in the show notes. (music ends)
700
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:37,880
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast brought to you by Answers Investigation and UK fingerprint.
701
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,320
If you've enjoyed our conversation and want to learn more about the fascinating world
702
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:47,000
of investigations, be sure to check out private detectives Answers Investigation.
703
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,880
Their experienced team offers a wide range of discrete and professional services, helping
704
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,960
you find the answers you need with integrity and expertise.
705
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,760
If you're interested in fingerprint analysis or require specialist fingerprint services,
706
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,880
don't miss UK fingerprint.
707
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,960
As one of the leading fingerprint companies in the UK, they provide everything from identification
708
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,640
to background checks, working with individuals, businesses, financial institutions and gambling
709
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,320
companies.
710
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:21,360
To find out more, visit www.private-detectives.co.uk.
711
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,040
That's a minor sign.
712
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,120
713
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:33,520
Please do your go-to resources for investigative solutions and fingerprint expertise.
714
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:39,600
You can call their office on 020-07158-0332.
715
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,720
Thanks once again for tuning in.
716
00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,240
Until next time, stay curious and keep seeking the truth.
717
00:40:45,240 --> 00:40:55,240
1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,240
Welcome to Detective Diaries brought to you by Private Detectives' Answers Investigation.
2
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,720
If you are captivated by the art of deduction, the thrill of solving the unsolvable, or the
3
00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:18,880
enigmatic world of private investigation, you've just found your new favourite podcast.
4
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,560
Detective Diaries is where secrets unravel and the truth is always a clue away, presented
5
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:29,920
by Private Detectives' Answers Investigation. Each episode contains offbeat conversations
6
00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:35,960
about the real people involved in investigation.
7
00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:40,480
You are listening to part 2 of my wonderful conversation with Professor Emma Short exploring
8
00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:45,760
the themes of cyber psychology. Part 1, explored the foundations of cyber psychology and
9
00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,800
the hidden psychological impact of life online. But don't worry, you can jump into part 2
10
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,120
right here, but with that said, do be sure to go back and listen to part 1 as we give
11
00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,920
you a deeper context into the world of cyber psychology. Enjoy.
12
00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:06,800
We're obviously talking about tools, open source intelligence and social media. We've
13
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,960
talked about how that perhaps blurs some lines, but do you think that will cause people
14
00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:13,480
to perhaps become their own investigators?
15
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:20,760
Yeah, I really think that this does happen. And again, we've seen it in a popular
16
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:28,200
media because social media creates a second tier of investigators, the crowd.
17
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,280
And we've talked about those groups dynamics that being pulled into something that feels
18
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,680
meaningful, that gives you a sense of belonging and identity is something that as human
19
00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:41,720
being's we all want. And if you've got a job to do, I.e. your sleuthing over a particular
20
00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:49,320
thing, for example, it feels really purposeful. So we've seen a number of these things happen
21
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,000
where it goes really, really well when the crowd does detect something and bring it to the
22
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,520
attention of the police. But we've also seen it, you know, sort of where it turns out really
23
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:04,560
badly where vigilantism and which is really cyber. I think someone has put those two words
24
00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:11,080
together, but I can't think how it sounds cyber and vigilante. And that was the case that
25
00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:18,400
was in an Netflix series about the Cecil Hotel, where the crowd had analysed every moment,
26
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:27,280
every frame of the footage that remained of Alisa Lam who died and thought they had identified
27
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:31,120
the person who may have been linked to her death. And no one was linked to her death in the
28
00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:37,640
end. It was a tragic accident, but they named this person, they pursued him. And you know,
29
00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:42,720
he talks about it in the series about having his life at that time, I think, for him it felt
30
00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:47,840
catastrophic. You know, let's hope very much. He's sort of come back from that. But yeah,
31
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:54,640
the crowd and open source data, those two make a powerful combination. And again, it's
32
00:02:54,640 --> 00:03:03,240
that immediate levels of access have never been more so open now than before. Yeah, I can't
33
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:09,440
imagine being that person villainised for something which of course is so unknown to them
34
00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:14,600
or was just randomly coming out of the blue. It's not predicted. It's not something that
35
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,640
you can see coming. Yeah, and we do sit all the time, you know, things like, you know, helping
36
00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:26,520
a missing persons cases, the tick tock phenomenon, the detectives, the ghost hunters. Yes.
37
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:32,680
Really sort of out there looking at the data and pulling enormous amounts of views and followers.
38
00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:34,120
So there is something compelling about Open Source
39
00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:44,400
and group work. The case to be involved, oh, I've seen this online, so I've got to give
40
00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,120
my view and opinion here. Yes. But I suppose it can be a negative. Yes.
41
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:57,000
Again, just saying this is my view can be quite damaging, I suppose, especially where perhaps
42
00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:02,680
it should be a professional or someone who perhaps has the background knowledge expertise
43
00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:08,840
to answer. Yeah. And someone who's conscious of critically looking at the material they're
44
00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:16,480
looking at because there is so much misinformation out there. I do think there are some very good
45
00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,640
centres, like Bell and Kat and so on, where you can kind of, you know, there are several.
46
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:28,520
You know, like that now where you know it's fact-checked. Yes. And we do need to, in order to
47
00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:36,040
believe things and act upon them, we should check they're true. I wonder what level of information
48
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:41,920
in the future will be misinformation because of course it's so high now already. I wonder
49
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:48,360
if using an example, you have an AI giving you that misinformation, obviously I know it exists
50
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:53,240
now, but on mass, you have the AI giving you the miss information to which the general public
51
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:58,360
take as, that must be gospel, that must be fact. Yeah. And I can't imagine that's going
52
00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,880
to be a wonderful one. And what do we do at that point? Is there a way to come back from
53
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,480
that, do you think? I think a lot of it's about digital, interesting, I really, really
54
00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:14,360
do, and critical thinking because we need to fact-check, we need to stop and wait a beat,
55
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,560
you know, if you have an emotional reaction to something you see online, it's really important
56
00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:24,240
not to react automatically or immediately because it's probably what's been engaged with its,
57
00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:29,240
not your thinking, it's your feelings. Yes. So digesting all the information first and
58
00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,600
then react. But we are also really susceptible, you know, as human beings, whether or not we're
59
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:41,560
critical human beings who kind of are waiting that beat, you know, every human being is susceptible
60
00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:48,400
to what's called a pattern hunger. So when you have a lot of open source data or OSINT,
61
00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:56,000
which is really gone Ive seen a lot on baseball caps recently, so it's clearly a growing movement.
62
00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,320
We look for patterns in the data, you know, like we look for patterns in clouds, I know that's
63
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:05,240
quite a cheesy kind of comparison to make, but we look for patterns, we think we're seeing
64
00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:13,240
them. And most of us, if we were not triangulating our beliefs or our findings with at least one
65
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,440
other person, would make erroneous conclusions about a pattern in the data.
66
00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:24,120
Do you think then that the ability for someone to critically think is being reduced because
67
00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:29,680
we have an acceptance to view what we see in front of us in that digital space?
68
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,880
I think unless we've got methods and tools and a strategy by which to look at the data,
69
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,520
and we are sticking to those steps and we are checking with other people, I think it is
70
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:47,320
very easy to come to the wrong conclusions. You know, more than one mind is necessary.
71
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,680
I think unless you've got a programme that's got sort of pre-programmed parameters, it's
72
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:55,840
looking at stuff, but we will, we will see what patterns. This is the problem with surveillance
73
00:06:55,840 --> 00:07:01,200
generally, you know, when we talk about where is the line, you know, I think the line between
74
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:08,560
watching and surveillance is a really fine line. And for individuals, the minute they start,
75
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:15,520
not just noticing, but interpreting, assigning motives to people, constructing a case about
76
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:21,040
them, that they have completely constructed themselves and are projecting onto someone else.
77
00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:26,000
You know, at that point, you are no longer just watching. And you may make all sorts of
78
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,660
erroneous judgments about this person, what they are like, what they are doing, what they
79
00:07:30,660 --> 00:07:40,360
deserve. Yeah, I think we've got to be really careful. But there is also the thing that if
80
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,400
you get involved in this stuff, you draw erroneous opinions, but they are funny.
81
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:50,000
You know, you get all of that social validation, you know, from the group from whom you want
82
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:56,000
respect, you know, from that, that herd. So it's a really compelling environment. You've
83
00:07:56,000 --> 00:08:01,280
got all this data, you can impose patents on it that kind of basically are projected from
84
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:08,960
you. And you get validation and social sort of affirmation. So it's a really compelling
85
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:15,280
thing. It reminds me of the deviance and purification cycle in the sense that once
86
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,760
it's there, it's in that circle and it's just going to amplify and amplify because it's
87
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:26,040
sort of to use a better tern for it, it's kind of everyone saying the same thing or it gets
88
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,400
escalated and therefore before you know it, that as you say is implanted onto someone else
89
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:36,040
accepted, oh, I'll go with the herd on this. The lack of critical thinking doesn't question
90
00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:41,080
it or perhaps review what there is. And then it just changes into something else.
91
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,800
Yeah, you're making me think here, I mean, it's probably because there tonight there is
92
00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,560
an episode of celebrity traitor. And that's clearly the high point in my day. I might be
93
00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:55,720
alone in that. I don't know. This herd thinking where it's not just sort of a critical evaluation
94
00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:02,320
of information that make you less susceptible to the herd. It is a sense of personal agency
95
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:07,200
and a sense of personal worth. And I think we need to build this in people. So you look
96
00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:13,000
at celebrity traitors, for example, they will often vote, everyone might vote for someone
97
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:17,920
else to be evicted. I'm sorry if we're kind of excluding you from the conversation Would you like to give
98
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:24,040
a kind of an, outline of what celbrity traitors is before I carry on. I, I, I, I, tell you waht,
99
00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:30,840
what, why don't we hear from you actually go, go on, lay it all.... So celebrity traitors
100
00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:37,280
obviously popular at the moment. celebrities on the show where one person nominated a traitor
101
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,960
and then essentially, I don't know the rest of it in's and outs, but as far as I'm concerned,
102
00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,760
I'm, I'm literally just learning. I'm only four episodes into the whole, the whole kind
103
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:51,080
of concept. Oh, you could probably tell me more. Okay. It's, it's, it's basically where three
104
00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:56,600
people are selected as traitors who will, who will gradually one by one pick off the faithfulls
105
00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:02,1
And obviously they want to find the traitors so they're not kind of, you know, killed
106
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,600
in their beds, which they're not killed. They've just given a letter and sent home. And
107
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:10,920
their agents probably thinking, damn, they're not going to get the full, the full, the full
108
00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,680
wack. But you've got no information to go on because they've literally just been nominated
109
00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:22,120
by the host. Okay. No data. But people have strong opinions. And that's basically, I think
110
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:30,880
based on like or dislike. So right. And when you watch the, the episodes that are made
111
00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:40,480
with the general public, quite often one person will be dominant in that group. And the, the
112
00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:44,360
herd will be swayed. They will all end up voting for the same person. Sure. But if you
113
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:50,520
look at the celebrity one, almost everyone has their own idea of who is based on no data,
114
00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:54,280
but they believe it is the right person. Yes. And they will stick to their guns. They
115
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:59,040
won't be swayed by the herd. And that has to be about a theme of self worth. Right. Or
116
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:04,480
experience of being validated by others as an individual. Sure. So I think, you know, to
117
00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:10,560
resist misinformation, to resist the negative effects of the herd, it's not just critical
118
00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:16,280
digital literacy. It is about working on everyone's feeling of self worth because every individual
119
00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:22,720
matters, you know, where do we build that in more? That actually everyone is worthy of an
120
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,120
opinion. And everyone is valued. Absolutely. Everyone's voices is valuable as the next.
121
00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:33,480
Yeah. Absolutely. It's quite interesting when you say about celebrity traitors because I
122
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:39,920
think the pictures of Alan Carr sweating coming to mind in the article recently, the assumptions
123
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:44,440
on everyone's going to think I'm a traitor just because of my natural disposition. I'm
124
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,760
sweating a lot. Well, thank goodness there arent too many menopausal
25
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:53,400
women on there because we'd all be voted off. Who do you want to get through before?
126
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,360
I mean, I'm just so I'm watching it. It was almost like watching sort of something under a microscope.
127
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:04,280
I'm just watching it all was such interest. I don't however it unfolds. It would be wonderful.
128
00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:12,600
Part of the drama, how it unfolds. So obviously many crimes we call cyber, cyber fraud,
129
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:18,360
cyber stalking, cyber harassment. They obviously existed long before the internet. What
130
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:24,440
truly then makes a crime perhaps cyber enabled rather than just something that occurs digitally
131
00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:30,680
or in a digital form? Yeah. Well, you've got kind of, I think the classic split, the
132
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:35,160
language in the jargon evolves all the time. So, I'm sorry if I'm out of date here, but I
133
00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:40,440
still work with the cyber enabled and the cyber dependence distinction. So cyber
134
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:45,560
dependent is where the crime couldn't happen unless there was technology. Right. So it's
135
00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:50,920
often a machine to machine so it might be things like hacking because you can only hack a computer,
136
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:56,920
you can't hack a person with a computer. Sure. So it might be, you know, things like
137
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:02,360
DDoS, you know, the sort of attacks. They are cyber dependent crimes, machine to machine
138
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:08,920
through a network. Everything else pretty much is cyber enabled. IE, it's about how technology
139
00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:19,000
changes the scale and the capability of the crime. So fraud and scams, you know, their cyber enabled
140
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:28,440
now, harassment stalking, child sexual exploitation, hate speech, very topical. All of those things,
141
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:34,280
image-based sexual abuse, you know, sexual abuse, unfortunately has always occurred, but now
142
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:39,640
there is an additional sort of tool, you know, which is image-based. And I suppose then it is
143
00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:45,800
another case of being able to look at the original aspects of the crime, how it's forming,
144
00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:51,800
how a new motive and technique can advance into a cyber enabled crime and then being able to
145
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,760
perhaps tackle it on both fronts in that sense because I'm sure, you know, we sort of mentioned
146
00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:01,880
a couple of topics there where it becomes cyber enabled. It's a lot more difficult to track in that
147
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:08,120
sense. Whereas the human side, there might be perhaps more of a trail physically. And so I can
148
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:13,160
imagine that could be quite difficult when a crime perhaps transcends into being cyber enabled.
149
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,480
Do you have to completely, because I know you work with, obviously with a lot of investigators and
150
00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:22,280
and sort of police with techniques, does it, does it completely uproot how they deal with it?
151
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:27,560
Just because it's turned cyber enabled or is it kind of a transition into, we've tackled it on
152
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,280
the human front, we're looking at the cyber side now, or is it one and the same?
153
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,840
It's interesting you say that because I think
154
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:44,600
digital evidence, although it's often transient, it can be altered, it can be all removed.
155
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:53,880
So it's got to be collected quickly. Yes. But you are more likely to leave a residue
156
00:14:53,880 --> 00:15:01,240
of criminal behaviour online than you are offline to some extent. That you can literally track
157
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:09,080
people's behaviour, but you are relying on having a really technically informed cyber investigator
158
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:18,440
or a police officer who has those skills. I think it has improved a lot, quite a lot of people
159
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,960
used to shy away from it the minute it was cyber because they just felt these deskilled.
160
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:29,800
But actually you've got a very rich scene of evidence to pull on from cyber communications,
161
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:36,360
digital communications. It's interesting. I think less and less, we're separating things like
162
00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:42,200
in harassment and stalking, where not separating physical and cyber in the same way as we did.
163
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:48,040
Because basically, things like stalking, every case has a cyber element now.
164
00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:53,960
Of course it does, because we are so dependent on it. It's at everyday life, isn't it?
165
00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:59,960
So yeah, yeah. And so I guess it's how it comes around to the case prosecution or the evidence
166
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,520
putting it all together. As you say, there's no longer that separation of here's what they did
167
00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,840
physically is what these... It's all one. It would be part of the evidential your case.
168
00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:12,520
Right. But it's one of those things again, we were talking earlier about how
169
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:18,760
technology and automation is really helpful in some ways, but it doesn't always match human experience.
170
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:24,680
So for example, for an investigator trying to compile the evidence of a case of cyber stalking,
171
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:34,920
they might have 20,000 screenshots and messages to report to deposit, to construct one human being
172
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:41,720
has to pull that together. Some of the systems support them, some of them don't, but we're still
173
00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:48,280
looking at one human being who's having to work through a volume of evidence in cyberhouse.
174
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,880
There is so much greater than it would have been if it was just physical stuff.
175
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,400
That's amazing. That's fascinating.
176
00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:03,000
I think it's obviously a case may come to a point where there isn't actually a physical
177
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:09,720
presence. A cyber-enabled crime is truly demonstrated through the evidential chain of cyber-related
178
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:16,760
documents, testimonies, whatever it may be. So do we then get to a point where
179
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:25,320
everything is just cyber-orientated? Are you, for example, a crime when committed? There isn't a
180
00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,680
human element involved anymore. It is someone who has orchestrated this truly through
181
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:37,160
whatever technologies or systems that they utilise and how do we then combat that?
182
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:45,960
Tough one. That was a little bit... Look at what they hit the headlines every week, don't they?
183
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:54,920
It's people who are bringing down whole systems through hacking, which is cyber-dependent, obviously.
184
00:17:54,920 --> 00:18:00,920
The NCA published figures, didn't it? It's last year that most of them are teenagers,
185
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:08,360
and they're bringing down these multinational stuff, which is kind of thing. This is what we need to work
186
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:16,120
on, building that confidence, building that idea of maybe challenging engagement in cyber-world
187
00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:22,920
can be one about a protective action, how can we beat the hackers? How can you be the one to work
188
00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:28,520
out, where the back door is, so you can protect it? I do think there is a real need to engage people.
189
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:34,360
I think I cant remember in which company was, but they were talking about ethical hacking.
190
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,080
I think most of the companies are looking at this now, but they'll invite these people with the talents
191
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:46,440
to say, "Hey, come and destroy our piece of work here. We want to see what the problems are."
192
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,240
And there's probably a job for you at the end of it. What a wonderful motive to bring out those
193
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:56,280
people who are looking at going into the darker side. The very people who's career-opportunity
18:56,280 --> 00:19:02,200
is taking them to push through lines, break through security walls. These are the people who
195
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:08,440
may well respond to those sort of calls. I think there are some, arent there, I can't remember ,Ive wirtten them down.
196
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:13,480
There are a couple of initiatives out there that have been put together by the NCA,
197
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:18,040
that are deliberately trying to involve young people in sort of ethical hacking,
198
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,880
getting involved in that. And you think, "Yeah, let's just push more of that."
199
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,920
Absolutely. It's not going to be about baseball camps at the weekend,
200
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,200
anyone. This is what a lot of people want to be doing.
201
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,720
And opening that door to the conversation as early as possible again is that important thing,
202
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,520
isn't it, before they go off and see something that perhaps they shouldn't, which then leaves them
203
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:45,720
onto a path of, "I can apply this in a criminal world, and do what I want to do, perhaps, so interesting."
204
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:51,720
So, if online crime that operates through networks rather than hierarchies,
205
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:56,200
how does that sort of change our whole idea of investigation and prevention?
206
00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,680
OK I mean, this again, it's quite interesting. It's about distributed systems, isn't it?
207
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:07,480
That people aren't connected in a hierarchy. There are a series of loose connections
208
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:14,440
and associations, so there isnt a boss at the top, quite often, in a lot of crime.
209
00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:20,040
So, if it's operating through networks rather than hierarchies,
210
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:25,160
there has been a rearrangement of the criminal world since this has started.
211
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:31,720
And these networks are resilient and they're agile because if one node gets taken out, the whole thing
212
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:36,760
doesn't collapse because there are series of loose connections. So, the only way really to investigate
213
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:45,800
things like that is through mapping the connections, mapping that association in order to try and understand
214
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:51,640
what's happening. So, investigators need to map ecosystems, rather than identify kingpins,
215
00:20:52,600 --> 00:21:01,080
where crime is based entirely online in this way. And they will be probably problems of jurisdiction.
216
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:10,520
Some people might be in Manchester, some people might be in America, some people might be in Russia,
217
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:16,120
who knows, but they will be distributed around the world. So, mapping that ecosystem is important,
218
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:20,600
but then the jurisdictional challenges of doing that work are enormous.
219
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,520
Yes, it becomes much more international than ever before.
220
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,720
Yeah, I could imagine. And how you pinpoint where these cells groups, wherever they might be,
221
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:35,960
how they operate, blurs the lines completely again, most one person who may
222
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,680
distinctly be in the group chats or the logs or whatever it may be, as someone who has the
223
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:46,600
position of authority could just be a figurehead in an entire operation. So, I could imagine,
224
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:53,080
again, another layer of trying to peel back the true origins of the group of the crime.
225
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,280
Yes. And do they know who each other are? Exactly.
226
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:57,720
Exactly. Exactly.
227
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:03,880
So, I mean, you've got a philosophical shift in the way it's kind of structured.
228
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,400
You've got a change, necessary for investigation and police.
229
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:13,640
And it's just about understaiding who's in the loop, really. Maybe no one's in charge.
230
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,040
It's all just going around in the circle and there are no orders.
231
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,760
I think the challenges are enormous, but it also means that sort of, you know,
232
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:30,280
investigators have a changing skill set, you know, they need to be able to be data scientists and
233
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:36,520
behavioral analysts, you know, not just sort of those investigative skills.
234
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:37,480
Yes.
235
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:43,880
Yes, problems solving now, incorporates analysis, not only just how can we get from A to B and solve
236
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:49,560
the problem, but what are the underlying factors here which could help answer something a bit
237
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:56,600
more grandiose here in terms of motive, in terms of how they deliberately approach this
238
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,360
through criminal ways, utilising technology in doing so.
239
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:01,000
Yes.
240
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,520
So, fascinating.
241
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:07,560
And I do, I mean, this is a shout out to all the police analysts out there who I think are
242
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:13,240
the unsung heroes in crime at the moment. You know, they, they often work in isolation because
243
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:19,320
there's only funding, say one or two, but they can find you the answers, you know, when you,
244
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,320
if you are able to engage with them.
245
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:28,920
And I just think their contribution to police and crime is often under-recognised
246
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,320
and certainly underfunded because they have those skills we're talking about, you know, they can
247
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:39,160
map things, they can, they can identify patterns because they will construct parameters that
248
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:44,200
won't distract them and they will do systematically, so they are, they are great people.
249
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,440
As you , say the unsung heroes.
250
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:46,920
Yeah.
251
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:47,400
Yeah.
252
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:48,360
Fascinating.
253
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:56,360
So, how then does online misogyny function as both sort of ideology and crime and sort of
254
00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:00,600
going back to how we were talking about teaching to look out for the signs? How would,
255
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,880
how would you help people to try and recognise this when they're seeing it?
256
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:10,360
Okay, do we want to start with the ideology and the crime or how to recognise it?
257
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:11,080
We would do like to...
258
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:16,920
Let's, let's do the ideology, I think, I think would make sense.
259
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:24,520
Well, you know, there is an ideology behind it which is kind of what makes it
260
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:33,960
sort of so dangerous, like many forms of terrorism have an ideology behind them,
261
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:40,040
you know, and this is a belief system that frames women as inferior or deceptive or dangerous.
262
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:49,640
And there is a movement around it, but it's often dressed up as self-improvement about maybe men's
263
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,080
rights, you know, the word incel is embraced by some and rejected by others.
264
00:24:55,080 --> 00:25:03,880
And it's a language that's full of hierarchy, you know, Alphas, beta's, high value, low value,
265
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,680
and those are assigned to individuals, you know, and internalised.
266
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:17,640
So what happens is people who identify with that kind of incel-thinking is that it gives them
267
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:23,560
an identity and an explanation for failure. Right. So it's not me, it's the system that's stacked
268
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:29,640
against me. Right. It's these sort of these terrible women or diversity or inclusion
269
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:38,120
that's keeping me down. And what happens is that shared grievance becomes amplified and is rewarded,
270
00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:43,640
expression of hostility and grievance is rewarded. Right. Expressions of empathy are kind of rejected.
271
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,560
So there is again this kind of amplification and the building up of this grievance that becomes a
272
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:58,840
shared identity in a shared language. But it's also a crime space. Yes. So when that ideology
273
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:05,880
justifies acts that spill into the criminal or the violence or harassment or coordinated
274
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:12,840
pylons, for example, that's when you kind of tipped into the crime area where that dialogue
275
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:19,720
is justifying acts of crime. And certainly, you know, we have seen cases, there are cases around
276
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:27,400
where there are certainly crimes that are motivated by misogyny. I think the problem again is that
277
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:33,560
those people who perhaps not saying they necessarily had those views in the first place, but perhaps
278
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:40,440
have had thought it or radicalisation. And having that point of view demonstrated through
279
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:45,480
the tiktok, ..oh they're, saying exactly what I'm thinking must be right then.
280
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:51,560
I must be right. This must be the viewpoint that I'm not being taught at in education, of course,
281
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:58,440
because it's a wrong view, but it's something that is inherently wrong from the offset
282
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:04,760
becomes that gospel conversation of this is what I know, this is what it's being said,
283
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:10,040
it must be true. Yeah. This explains everything happening to me. Yeah. And it's interesting
284
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:17,560
though that, as you say, it becomes that conversation of me versus the world, because the world is wrong.
285
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,440
And they can take the standpoint of, I'm here to change the world into something which is better,
286
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:28,840
when actually the better is quite a few paces behind where we are now and going in the wrong direction.
287
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:35,160
And that self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps, then, of instilling, yeah, this is how I'm going to do
288
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:39,400
right, is how I change when you completely barking up the wrong tree, let's say. Yeah.
289
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:46,520
Its fascinating, fascinating. So then how does that change our idea of investigation and
290
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:52,040
prevention then would you say, difficult, I imagine, because you're dealing with that self-belief of
291
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:59,000
people who kind of go ... as I said before about their bubble being burst, truth and reality
292
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:05,400
put in front of someone, but because it's a warped mentality, which is instilled by this herd mentality,
293
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:10,920
you're not going to change my view. It's kind of saying, yeah, good luck trying to change it. I'm so
294
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:16,040
engrossed in this now. There's no way to step down and step back from the platform.
295
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:23,080
Yeah, I think it is really difficult, and I know there is some work that is being done,
296
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:29,320
it has been done with people who have become radicalised as incels that has been quite affective.
297
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:37,960
And it really is quite core work, working with attitudes and things about self-worth,
298
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:47,800
because the grievance comes from a place of feelings of injustice, of self-loathing,
299
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:55,240
there are lots of things that can be worked with there, so there are real movements to try and
300
00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:04,760
intervene. But there are also people in that group who are not just vulnerable individuals,
301
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:14,360
they want to hurt people, and I think it's really difficult to identify who those dangerous actors are,
302
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:22,120
but the same sort of methods of detection and sort of assessment can apply here as well.
303
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,680
There will be a lot of people in that forum who are affected, who are radicalised,
304
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,120
but there will only be a handful who are dangerous individuals.
305
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:30,360
Right.
306
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:37,720
Their message, however, is generally damaging and dangerous, so I'm not saying
307
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,280
that they're not dangerous because they are dangerous. The fact is affecting
308
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:48,680
public narrative attitudes to women, that these may be the first influences,
309
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,480
a lot of young men have about women that may form their opinions and therefore their treatment
310
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,200
of women. That is terrifying.
311
00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,600
It is. It really is. And I suppose it's again the control,
312
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:07,480
because how can we police such a space where it's all out there, and as we've said earlier today,
313
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,880
once it's out there, there's no kind of getting it back.
314
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,520
And how do we disrupt those networks?
315
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,800
As they're distributed?
316
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,760
Yes, yes. And once it becomes, sort of to use it a cult following, if you will,
317
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:24,200
has it already been gone beyond that the realms of being stopped, and is it a case of just trying
318
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,920
to minimise the fallout of that?
319
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:35,640
I mean, I'm a big believer in everything goes round a cycle, not everything just grows exponentially
320
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:43,880
forever. I do think there is ebb and flow, and I'm always an optimist that things can be pulled back,
321
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,200
that things can be improved, even if it's only for a temporary time before it comes again.
322
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,000
Before something else changes and takes us back, but you know,
323
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,600
I do think, you know, there are things that can be done, and you know, like,
324
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:02,600
we're all over things like, you know, other forms of terrorism, and there have been,
325
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:09,000
you know, really effective interventions, you know, and in my view, this ideology is just as
326
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:14,600
damaging as those forms of terrorism, and I'm certain that similar principles can be applied.
327
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:18,760
Yeah, it's a very interesting, because I wonder what the next sort of
328
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:28,680
i would incel group be, for example, you know, we've heard the news on the anti-Semitism, the rise of
329
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:34,200
far right, for example, what would be the next thing obviously it's hard to predict, and
330
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,440
no one probably should ever predict, because then that might give someone an idea, but
331
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:45,560
I wonder is there going to be a point where there is a breaking point, where the ceiling has been met,
332
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:52,200
and there is no more space for these views, or people perhaps seeing it's been quite intolerable of
333
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:57,080
that difference. Does it all sort of implode at that point? It's hard to say, isn't it?
334
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:02,520
Well, we see eruptions, don't we? Things like, Southport, you know, where it's a similar expression,
335
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,280
isn't it, where there's a shared grievance, you know, my life is terrible. I feel lesser.
336
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:14,440
So do I, so do I, so do I, we have the shared grievance, and it's their fault,
337
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:22,360
and whoever's fault is seems to change in terms of public consciousness, and we did see,
338
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:27,560
we have seen it erupt from time to time recently, and we know a lot of that was
339
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:34,120
accelerated by social media. Yes, and misinformation is part of it, isn't it?
340
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,800
Because that shared grievance, that emotional contagion doesn't take a few weeks to build in a
341
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,480
group where you meet up once a week, it can happen in hours or overnight through social media, where
342
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,280
a post is put down that people respond to emotionally, they think that sounds the same for me.
343
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:56,360
I'm furious, we have a shared mission, and we have identified the group who we are blaming.
344
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:02,760
And it's dangerous, really dangerous, and terrifying for the groups who are caught in those crosshairs.
345
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:11,960
And I think it will always be difficult for introducing someone to an online space, and as you say,
346
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,560
I think that the important thing is to have conversations on this, you know, just to say,
347
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:21,000
you're going to see these things, you're going to hear about these things, it might not even be a human
348
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:27,800
behind that comment, that message, the bots, and how do we teach young people who are already
349
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:33,400
so exposed to that? There would have been a policy....
350
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:39,480
Through conversations, I mean, I would love to be in a position where I could sit alongside
351
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:44,280
people who are not my age group, who are not my demographic.
352
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:51,160
For a day, and just sit with them and observe the stream they're getting.
353
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,480
Because I am certain their reality, their social media reality, their news reality,
354
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:57,000
is entirely different from mine.
355
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:57,560
Yes.
356
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:03,560
I mean, we know about these sort of echo chambers, but I bet, yeah, I bet your data from the moment
357
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:07,480
you wake up and you start looking at those reels, everyone's day is very different.
358
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:14,360
So we need to maybe be sharing our personal experiences of our online feeds,
359
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,360
so we can talk about it.
360
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:23,000
Yes, to have analysis and conversation on the differences and the things to be aware of.
361
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:29,400
It's like, why are you angry about this thing? Why are you concerned about this thing?
362
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,560
Why are you furious with these people?
363
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:36,840
Well, if we could see what everyone else is seeing day by day, we would understand
364
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,480
what was on their minds and why.
365
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,200
Yes.
366
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:40,680
Yes.
367
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:46,360
And then being able to plan and tackle and look at that, I'm always just envisioning taking away
368
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,520
the phone of a young person just to say, no more time tonight.
369
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,000
You've had to time.
370
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,200
So very interesting.
371
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:03,240
So obviously, we've talked quite a lot then about the current sort of aspects in place,
372
00:35:03,240 --> 00:35:10,280
current laws needing to keep up with the digital world and environment.
373
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:16,040
What really can be done, because obviously policing it, as we've discussed, is difficult.
374
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:23,000
Can we really deter cyber enabled crime or does the digital environments undermine
375
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,600
traditional deterrents?
376
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:31,880
I think deterrents much harder to make visible,
377
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,360
yes, to make apparent.
378
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,880
You know, we talked about the lack of an effective guardian in the online space.
379
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:38,120
Yes.
380
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:39,400
It's true.
381
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,800
There is a lack of an effective guardian.
382
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,800
I think we can teach individual literacy skills.
383
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,120
I think we have to push much, much harder for responsible design.
384
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,720
I really do.
385
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:59,240
We have to have many, many more conversations with industry about how it's designed.
386
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:02,200
And we have to have dialogues, I think, in the family.
387
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,040
You know, it goes back to sort of that early modelling of what is trust.
388
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:12,520
You know, how do we manage our online lives and our privacy?
389
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:19,320
So I think it comes from the family and just accepting the fact that actually
390
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:26,600
communication in intimate spaces like in families isn't just physical.
391
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:27,880
It's in digital spaces.
392
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:33,480
So how do we show trust through digital connections with family and children?
393
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,600
How do we respect privacy in that way?
394
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,920
It's like, I don't know, again, I'm going to use another crass analyses,
395
00:36:41,720 --> 00:36:46,680
sort of analogy. With children, you expect them to close their doors
396
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,040
to you and have privacy, you know, as they get that little bit older and they're not
397
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,800
likely to fall out of the cot and stuff like that.
398
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,920
And yet we have access to their phones.
399
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,200
And actually, it's the same relationship.
400
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:04,360
You know, how do we negotiate those thresholds and separateness?
401
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,720
So I think there's a lot of that happening.
402
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:15,800
I mean, there are so many forms of prevention for cybercrime that we could go on about, but
403
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,160
I do worry about the lack of an effective guardian.
404
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,800
Yes. I think you're so right, as well, because the conversations don't tend to happen.
405
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:31,240
I think about my conversations being a younger person years ago being introduced to technology,
406
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:34,200
the kind of safety and the guidance we talk about now.
407
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,760
Never really existed when the internet was first coming to light at all.
408
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,200
You know, it was a wonderful tool and hey, look, there's going to be another world to go out there and
409
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:50,760
view. And now it seems like I'm in a position where every article, perhaps I view, I'm always thinking,
410
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,240
I probably should go look at another new source just to see if I'm getting the right facts here,
411
00:37:55,240 --> 00:37:58,600
or to see someone else's point of view on how it's reported.
412
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:04,520
And while of course my job in the work I do is giving me that mind and platform to do so,
413
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:11,400
not many people are given that guidance at a young age and certainly having that open dialogue,
414
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:17,800
I think from day one, would have shaped my narrative a lot quicker than it does now.
415
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,480
So yeah, early introduction, isn't it? Just speaking to people about it and talking about it,
416
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,080
we have to talk about it. We can't just sit here and accept now.
417
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:34,040
It's too far evolved, perhaps, to not have these important conversations.
418
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,000
Do you think they'll ever happen with the big industries, the operators and all of it?
419
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,560
I live in hope.
420
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,400
I'm with you.
421
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,880
I'm with you.
422
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:52,840
It's, yeah, it would be a difficult one. But then again, those landscapes may change again
423
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,320
and new people coming to the forefront we might be able to speak with about it.
424
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:58,520
Yes, yes.
425
00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:59,960
Excellent. Excellent.
426
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:07,560
Professor Short, it's been wonderful speaking with you and I'm looking at the time here thinking
427
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,480
I have engagements later, I just want to cancel the whole lot and continue speaking with you quite
428
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:18,840
frankly. We're kind of like to end episodes talking about the next generation, how people can
429
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,480
get involved in things like that. Obviously you're a professor and your work has been here for a number
430
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:30,600
of years. What perhaps is your message for anyone wanting to explore these realms of cyber psychology
431
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,880
or want to hear more from you? What perhaps can they go and listen to and read about?
432
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:44,440
I've got some, I've got papers published but they're really boring and often behind paywalls
433
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,200
unfortunately because that's how academic publishing works. I don't know, I should do, I should
434
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,760
do some more podcasts. I'm always open for people to get in touch. I think if you're interested in
435
00:39:54,760 --> 00:40:01,400
this area, doing a psychology degree, check out whether they're doing a cyber psychology module.
436
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:05,480
London Metropolitan does. Indeed.
437
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:06,360
Indeed.
438
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:12,120
It's because I think it is fascinating but also you will find in this community in cyber psychology
439
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:18,600
because it's quite a young feel. There are so many people who are really generous with knowledge sharing
440
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:25,720
and are open to conversations and will answer questions. I've got stuff out there that's
441
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:30,200
probably around, you can Google me and if you wanted to read about this where I've given commentary.
442
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:36,600
But yeah, I think just look around. Check out some of the BPS websites,
443
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:43,240
British psychological website for cyber psychology. Just do a bit of exploring because it's
444
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:49,080
a really exciting feel because it's young again you can make it your own, pursue the interests you have.
445
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:55,320
In the online environment, there isn't a standard. So many avenues to explore. So many avenues.
446
00:40:55,320 --> 00:41:00,520
Fantastic. Thank you again for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.
447
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:01,400
Thank you. Thank you.
448
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:08,920
Hear our Detective Diaries episode on the crossover between police and private detectives in the UK.
449
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:15,080
Available now on Spotify and Apple podcasts. People think it's just like the movie's Harry kicking
450
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:21,640
down doors with a warrant. But in the private sector, we don't have that blue light privilege. We have
451
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:27,240
to be smarter. Exactly that Nigel. When I started learning the ropes, the biggest shift was the
452
00:41:27,240 --> 00:41:32,520
unlearning. You realize your baseline isn't just about what you can do legally, but is it moral?
453
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,960
Is it ethical? Yeah, and the results are often faster. A client calls because they've been waiting months
454
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,960
for a police update on a fraud case or waiting for the SOCO to get back to them. We can pivot,
455
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:49,880
get boots on the ground while the official paperwork is still being filed. It's about bridging that gap
456
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,440
between public duty and private results. We're picking up exactly where they leave off,
457
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,920
whether it's corporate surveillance, forensic investigation or international tracing.
458
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:06,680
It's a different world entirely. This is Detective Diaries. Listen now on Spotify or Apple
459
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:12,520
podcasts. There's a link in the notes below this trailer. Hi, I'm Professor Emma Short,
460
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:19,080
cyber psychologist at London Metropolitan University. So come and listen to me talk on Detective Diaries.
461
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:24,520
We had an incredible hour talking about the online environment, how it may enable crime,
462
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:30,040
when watching Crosses the Line and perhaps becomes snooping. And also what happens when the crowd
463
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,920
takes control of an investigation.
464
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:42,120
Get involved Detective Diaries is interactive, which involves you, the listener.
465
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:47,240
Do you have a case you'd like to discuss? A burning question about investigative life?
466
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:53,560
Send an email to podcast@private-detectives.co.uk or reach out via social media.
467
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:59,640
You may hear your story featured in an upcoming episode. Don't forget to leave your contact details.
468
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,720
The email address is in the show notes.
469
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:16,040
We hope you enjoyed today's podcast, brought to you by answers investigation and UK fingerprint.
470
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,600
If you've enjoyed our conversation and want to learn more about the fascinating world of
471
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:26,840
investigations, be sure to check out Private Detectives' Answers investigation. Their experience
472
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:32,040
team offers a wide range of discrete and professional services, helping you find the answers you
473
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:37,720
need with integrity and expertise. If you're interested in fingerprint analysis or require
474
00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:43,320
specialist fingerprint services, don't miss UK fingerprint. As one of the leading fingerprint
475
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:48,440
companies in the UK, they provide everything from identification, to background checks,
476
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:53,400
working with individuals, businesses, financial institutions and gambling companies.
477
00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:01,320
To find out more, visit www.private-detectives.co.uk. That's a minus sign,
478
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:09,640
and www.ukfingerprint.co.uk. These are your go-to resources for investigative
479
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:17,640
solutions and fingerprint expertise. You can call their office on 020-7158 0332.
480
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:24,040
Thanks once again for tuning in. Until next time, stay curious and keep seeking the
481
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:30,280
truth
482
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:40,280
[BLANK_AUDIO]
