Detective Diaries - Podcast 'Criminal Defence Investigation'

TRANSCRIPT

Criminal Defence

Harry Watts and Nigel Parsons

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

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Welcome to Detective Diaries, brought to you

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by Private Detective's Answers investigation.

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If you're captivated by the art of deduction,

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the thrill of solving unsolvable, or the enigmatic world

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of private investigation, you have just

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found your new favorite podcast.

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Detective Diaries are where secrets are unraveled,

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and the truth is always a clue away.

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Presented by Private Detectives Answers investigation,

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each episode contains off beat conversations

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about the real people involved in investigations.

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Hey, Harry, how are we doing?

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Seems well, since we've sat down and talked about something

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for the podcast.

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I know, I know.

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Ah, it's all just about having a chance to sit down, right?

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Yeah, I thought we said 2 O'clock?

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I know, just dashing in, just dashing in.

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Oh, it always seems a bit mad to me.

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We work in the same building, but whenever I am around,

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you were dashing out and some job or other,

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and same works for me, really.

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Yes, never a dull moment, but always difficult to get us

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in the same room, isn't it?

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Yeah, so what are we going to talk about today?

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Yes, so I wanted to explore an area which many private eyes

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don't really get involved in, and that's criminal defense.

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So for basically, people accused of a crime.

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I know you've got probably quite a few stories and annecdotes..

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Oh, wow, yeah, that's an aspect.

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I really enjoy, it is so often,

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methodical and very detail ridden, legal representation

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where the person's barrister will deal with a routine legal aspects.

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But where we excel is finding the odd angles of evidence

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that support the accused's account of things.

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I mean, not explaining that very well,

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but our job is to make sure that the facts that the defense lawyer

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is arguing with, are solid, or poke holes in them if they aren't.

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I mean, that takes quite an innovative approach

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and thinking out of the box.

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Yeah, it's very holistic approach, isn't it, to cases?

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Thinking of all the variables and some variables

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that perhaps even the legal representation

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havent thought of yet.

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There's unseen points which we can explore

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and hopefully turn into tangible evidence.

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Yeah, OK, but before we get into this,

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I'd like to make something very clear for people who are listening.

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You watch any crime drama, I mean, I watch them.

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And inevitably, the private eye is going to stumble across the corpse,

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probably tripping over it, but that's drama.

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And the perpetrator obviously is going to confess,

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right at the very end, but real life,

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investigative work simply doesn't happen that way.

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I mean, take the UK, for example, last year,

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there were just 535 homicides in the country

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for a population of nearly 70 million,

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I mean, you can do the maths.

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The chances of one person being involved in a big crime like that

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are minimal.

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I mean, of that 535, for example, only 130 were unsolved.

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It's a really, really small chance that you

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are going to trip over the corpse, whether you

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are a private eye or not.

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What is our reality is the multitude of non-violent crimes

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of which people are accused, and often

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without viable defense, that's where we come in.

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I mean, as a company, we're not restricted to the UK.

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We've handled cases in Britain.

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We've also worked for people accused abroad, in Spain,

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in Morocco, in Romania, and elsewhere.

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So go on then, time for an anecdote.

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What's a case, you and your colleagues, been involved in?

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Oh, absolutely, but no name's involved,

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although the case did make the BBC news, which is why I can't

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sort of name too many people.

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OK, here goes.

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Bit of background first.

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We've got three lads who spend a week on holiday in Spain.

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They stay in an apartment, which is owned by one of their mothers.

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They're good lads, not trouble makers, grown up together,

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a week enjoying the sun.

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They spend a lot of time on a local bar strip

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and became well-known in one of the local bars.

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On the last night of their holiday,

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they go out for the evening, return

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by taxi to their apartment on the same night

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Two people were allegedly stabbed in a bar,

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300 metres away from where they'd been.

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When leaving the next day to return to the UK,

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two of them get themselves arrested at the airport

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on a charge of attempted murder.

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That had come about as a result of a witness identification,

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the witness had pointed them out from behind one way glass.

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Their friend was allowed to return home to the UK.

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Now, the Spanish judicial system allows a person's arrested

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for serious crime to be imprisoned without charge for up to four years.

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Five bail hearings were refused,

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and both of the lads remained imprisoned,

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and it was not pleasant. Spanish prisons

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and not a place you wish to be incarcerated, if anywhere.

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The only evidence in support of their innocence

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that they could present was their own statements

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and those of their friend,

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together with a digital camera,

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the photographs of which while not placing them

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elsewhere at the time of the incident,

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did support all their statements about their movements beforehand.

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Repeated bail applications were refused,

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and they were left in the discomfort of the nearby prison.

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We were asked to investigate with a view to obtaining evidence

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that would support the account of their movements.

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A number of people will be able to give an independent

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account of their own interaction with the boys.

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We were asked to investigate, that's answers investigation,

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with a view to obtain evidence that would support their account

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of their movements.

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A number of people will be able to give an independent account

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of their own interaction with the boys,

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notwithstanding the small matter of identifying them,

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locating them and interviewing them.

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I mean the witnesses in bulk.

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A lot of research was conducted from the UK

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looking at the bars concerned, the area, people,

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including the alleged victims,

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and the potential for exploring new evidence.

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Their defence was straight forward,

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but very difficult to substantiate.

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Simply, they had not visited the bar

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where the incident occurred at all.

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Did not meet the victims, or have anything to do

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with a former incident, whereby customers

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have been allegedly ejected from that bar

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for taking cocaine in the toilets,

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or the alleged return of those customers for revenge,

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which is what they were accused of being.

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Conscious, I'm not explaining this over well, but I'll try.

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They also did not own or rent,

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the black Seat Leon, which was seen

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and allegedly being used to make a getaway

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having been damaged in the process.

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Well, that's quite a significant matter.

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I mean, how was the car supposedly damaged?

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Well, one of the witnesses to the crime

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claims to have thrown a bar stall at it,

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breaking the rear window.

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I mean, it all sounds very dramatic.

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It sounds like a crime drama now.

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But at the time of the crime, our boys, our lads,

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they were at home in their own apartment,

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which belonged to one of their parents,

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Having researched and met with a number of witnesses

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in the UK who had been in the area and at locations,

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we began to build a timeline for not only the accused,

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but also their friend and the victims

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in order to substantiate their own account of their movements

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before and after the incident.

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Three of us visited the area, which enabled other evidence

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to be substantiated.

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We identified from research further witnesses

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as a result of local inquiries there.

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More witness statements were obtained.

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I think we took 13 in three days.

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And other leads gained, which would identify further witnesses

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who had since returned to the UK, bear in mind.

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this is very much a holiday area.

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A lot of the people there had been British,

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and of course they'd gone home after the first time.

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One of our first actions was to interview the friend

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who had been on holiday, the one who had not been arrested.

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The only statement that had been taken from him

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had been in Spain.

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It had been a very brief one, through an interpreter,

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who was apparently not very good.

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While he was there in Spain, he was able to give an account to us

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where one of the accused had been at the time of the incident,

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which helped us to build, together with statements

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of other witnesses from whom we had researched, identified,

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located, interviewed.

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He was able to give us a full account of his movements

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over a 36 hour period, none of which placed him anywhere

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near the scene or his friends.

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We've taken a full and comprehensive statement,

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however, it remained difficult to independently verify it.

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I imagine that verification is quite crucial here.

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Oh, absolutely.

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Spanish police refused to accept any statement

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evidence, saying it wasn't supported.

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So one of the items that had been presented in evidence

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was a digital camera.

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It belonged to the friend who was on holiday with him.

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So he still had it.

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We took about 250 odd photographs off it, which

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span the period of their visit.

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And it substantiated the movements and everything

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that they had, you know, legitimately,

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and honestly said.

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The photographs retained date and time properties.

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However, the police response, they just

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turned round and said, oh, well, that could have been amended.

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It could have been changed.

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It could have been altered.

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So they didn't accept it.

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Important thing was to substantiate

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that those photographs were taken at the time that they said

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that were.

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So combining examination of the camera

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with visits to the locations, we were

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able to produce calculations that substantiated

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that time and date properties, verified the times

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and the dates on the pictures, and

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therefore made it admissible.

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I can see the complexity arriving here.

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How do you even go about making those calculations?

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OK.

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Now you are really taxing my ability to explain something.

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But I'll try to explain it simply.

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Right, before we traveled Spain, we had a download

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for the digital camera, and we extracted all the time

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and date properties.

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When I happened to be doing some computer forensic

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work with a colleague on another issue,

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and he's all abput computer forensics, he's got

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a very analytical brain.

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And he showed me access to a website that

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can produce shadow calculations.

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Essentially, it is this.

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If, and this is where I'll try to put this simply,

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if, say, you have Object A, that is 2 meters tall in the sun,

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at say 11 a.m. local time, on the 15th of July,

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at a set coordinate, latitude and longitude,

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the shadow will be, say, 1 meter tall.

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OK.

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Got it?

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Right.

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The website I'm talking about, and

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there are others, shows the factor of any time and date

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by inputting the date, the time, the same coordinates.

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So, for example, perhaps showing that the same object

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in the same place on the 15th of December,

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not the 15th of July, will have a shadow that is, say, 0.55,

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the length of the shadow measured on the 15th of July,

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or whatever the variance is.

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I'm struggling.

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OK.

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If you put the objects at the same height in the same place,

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but on a different day and time, that shadow calculation

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would be that for the original 1 meter shadow,

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the shadow should be 55 centimeters,

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all that factor of 0.55.

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OK.

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I know that's a little bit confusing.

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OK.

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Essentially, we visited the location of 2 of the photographs.

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One was on the roof of the apartment,

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block so that was easy, and the other one

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the streets on route to a place they had visited.

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One of the photographs on the roof had been of the lad

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who wasn't arrested, so we knew his exact height.

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We measured his exact height.

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And could then measure the shadow of something

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of the same height, noting the date and time

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when we took a reconstructive photograph.

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Right.

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The other was a shadow of a three-storey building.

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Now, to find out the height of the building,

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because it's three-storey's high,

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we can't exactly get a tape measure of it.

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00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,480

I managed to gain access to the roof, which

271

00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,560

I won't talk about.

272

00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:02,880

having got on top of the roof.

273

00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,400

Leaned out, used a laser measure.

274

00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,240

You know, one of those red'liney' things.

275

00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:10,760

I'm with you.

276

00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,960

I'm sure it's got a technical name,

277

00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,600

but to measure the height.

278

00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,760

So using mathematics, we could assess

279

00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:21,280

the length of its shadow in the donor photograph.

280

00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,640

Do you remember a Pythagoras?

281

00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:23,440

Pythagoras theorem.

282

00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:23,920

OK.

283

00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,080

You know, there's some two sides and so forth,

284

00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,120

and worked all that angle out.

285

00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,120

Can work out how long that original shadow was.

286

00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:37,280

Reconstructed it, compared the two, got the factor, OK?

287

00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,400

I'm with you.

288

00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,240

You're very much explaining and demonstrating this unorthodox

289

00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:43,040

solution here.

290

00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,040

I mean, what does the upshot and conclusion get to, then?

291

00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,040

OK.

292

00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,920

Our calculations. I'm so proud of you.

293

00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:55,240

Our calculations were 99.8% accurate.

294

00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,080

Excellent.

295

00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,280

Proving that the evidential photographs were taken

296

00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,080

at the time that they were said to have been done,

297

00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,400

and it could not be refuted.

298

00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,760

I'm not sure the Spanish judge quite got it,

299

00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,840

but there was a lot of supportive material

300

00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,920

that went in, and that evidnece then went in at the next bail,

301

00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,080

hearing.

302

00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,080

So what other evidence was there?

303

00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,080

Right.

304

00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,080

OK.

305

00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,080

Go back.

306

00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,080

Do you remember what I was saying about inconsequential detail?

307

00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,000

It's so often when we take a witness statement,

308

00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,040

and we're very good at it, one of my colleagues

309

00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,200

is absolutely fantastic.

310

00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:31,400

he's done it for years.

311

00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,880

It's getting those little things out of somebody.

312

00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,520

everybody remembers that big event.

313

00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,360

It's what was happening around, and I don't know,

314

00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,480

what sort of scarf somebody was wearing.

315

00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,680

They're the things that lead authenticity to anyone's

316

00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,280

testimony.

317

00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,480

The common scene you'll see in TV dramas is a suspect in an interview

318

00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:52,080

room.

319

00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,120

He's being interviewed by the police.

320

00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,240

He says, oh, I was watching television last night.

321

00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,280

immediate question that interviewer will ever commonly

322

00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,440

ask, is what was on, what was the program on?

323

00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:03,720

Because it kind of substantiates.

324

00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:05,200

If he knows it, if he doesn't know it,

325

00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,160

it's more important because he's trying to catch him out.

326

00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:14,680

An incidental comment in the friend's witness statement

327

00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:15,920

that we took.

328

00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,240

It took a long time, very detailed.

329

00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:24,040

But an incidental comment he made was that he had been talking

330

00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,880

with one of the accused in their apartment at the time

331

00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,840

of the incident, and that there other friend that

332

00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:31,760

had been asleep.

333

00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,560

They'd heard him snoring.

334

00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,040

And the apartment was some 10 kilometers distant

335

00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:38,520

from the incident scene.

336

00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:39,680

Bear in mind they havent got a car.

337

00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,480

apart from this legend

338

00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,200

Black Seat Leon.

339

00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,600

which seems to be a matter of fiction.

340

00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,440

While the friends talk, they'd been aware of the apartment

341

00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,680

TV on in the background, they weren't watching it.

342

00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:53,720

And while they weren't watching it,

343

00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:55,600

they were aware of the film that was on.

344

00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:56,880

And it's-- you know, after a while he said --

345

00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,880

oh, I think it was that film, George Clooney,

346

00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,840

the three kings, that that was playing.

347

00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,880

When we were in Spain, we got access to the apartment TV,

348

00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,120

got all the menu and so forth, up on it.

349

00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:13,160

And we were able to verify what television channels

350

00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,240

that it could obtain.

351

00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:21,560

And with a bit of research going back over a prior TV

352

00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,720

schedules, guess what?

353

00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,840

TV2, at the time they were saying, 'three kings' was the program

354

00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,920

that they had broadcast on that night.

355

00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:31,240

And we could show that.

356

00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,920

we took snapshots of the screen and in the program listings.

357

00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,360

On top of that, we also tracked down, I think,

358

00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,640

it was about 13 witnesses, that the authorities had failed

359

00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,800

to find or, is it, you know, let alone interview?

360

00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,200

And all of them corroborated the boys' story.

361

00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,120

So quite substantial amount of work.

362

00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,640

What's the outcome then?

363

00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,720

Well, in a movie there'd be some dramatic ending,

364

00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,800

there never is one in real life.

365

00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,040

The authorities wouldn't give way.

366

00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,520

However, with a change of lawyer, supported by our evidence

367

00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,400

and our findings, both of the accused were released from prison

368

00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,240

after what was the seventh bail hearing,

369

00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,480

they were never subjected to trial.

370

00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,640

But, under Spanish law remained on bail.

371

00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,800

It's ridiculous for up to four years and even then

372

00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,360

it can just renew it.

373

00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:22,000

However, eventually, they were thankfully allowed

374

00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,720

to return to the UK.

375

00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,360

You make it seem almost straightforward.

376

00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:29,720

What, with that convoluted explanation?

377

00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:30,800

No, I don't think so.

378

00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:31,720

I mean, it wasn't.

379

00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,000

There was weeks of intensive work involved.

380

00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,440

Turning the sparse evidence over, looking for a route.

381

00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:41,800

While we did visit Spain, we had to, to see the Locals,

382

00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,800

to interview witnesses there.

383

00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,680

The intensity was demonstrated when we were there

384

00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:48,720

by the fact that the end of the trip,

385

00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,640

we realised that not one of us had actually seen the sea,

386

00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,480

which was 100 metres away.

387

00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,560

And, seriously, we were doing like 16 hours a day on it.

388

00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,160

So heavily involved, I can imagine?

389

00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,200

Anyway, Harry, come on, you must have a tale to tell, your turn.

390

00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,800

Do you know what, actually, I was thinking about this

391

00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,800

as we were listening to your rather wonderful story there.

392

00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,440

I remember a fairly significant case which we were involved in.

393

00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,560

We were tasked by legal counsel, essentially, to assist

394

00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,840

in obtaining evidence for an accused yacht club member.

395

00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,040

It was a fairly prestigious yacht club in central London

396

00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:26,720

and the accused, the male, was stated to have sexually assaulted

397

00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:27,880

another female member.

398

00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,160

So you could imagine quite alarming statements

399

00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:31,920

from the offset there.

400

00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,240

Essentially, obviously, in sensitivity, utmost,

401

00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,080

importance, we need to obtain the evidence,

402

00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,080

but factoring the significance of those allegations as well.

403

00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,240

So we obtained the report of the accused,

404

00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:42,920

essentially giving an account...

405

00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:45,320

Hang on a minute, hang on a minute, sorry.

406

00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,080

He's sexually assaulted her.

407

00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,160

I mean, without getting us X rated, how?

408

00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,840

Yeah, we've got to keep us on air somehow, while saying this.

409

00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:58,360

Yeah, so essentially involved the accused putting his hand

410

00:18:58,360 --> 00:19:02,480

underneath and between the lady, the victim's skirt,

411

00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,920

essentially placing his hand on her lower area, let's say,

412

00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,480

her crotch.

413

00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,120

So what, and this is just like a yacht club or...

414

00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:14,680

Very prestigious yacht club happening right outside the front door

415

00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,960

and essentially involving members there as well.

416

00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:19,760

OK, was he drunk?

417

00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:21,200

Lots of...

418

00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,240

Lots of alcoholic drinks, ok another subject.

419

00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:24,760

All right, so anyway, sorry.

420

00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,080

You carry on, I interrupted.

421

00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:27,720

No, that's OK, I interrupted.

422

00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:29,120

So of course, we get this account

423

00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:32,040

and the thing I should stress to listeners out there,

424

00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,720

because we are on the side of the accused here in the sense

425

00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,840

of we are obtaining evidence for them.

426

00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,440

You must understand it from both sides of the coin.

427

00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:40,680

So how do you do that?

428

00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,200

Well, we start off by going to the yacht club itself.

429

00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,760

Essentially, go on the grounds,

430

00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:47,880

trying to speak with managerial staff there

431

00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,800

and it was very, very clear from the offset

432

00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,560

that the yacht club was essentially protecting itself,

433

00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,760

being quite uncooperative,

434

00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,440

not providing people to speak with,

435

00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:59,280

specifically, you know, managers.

436

00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,120

We did eventually get to speak to one of the executives.

437

00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,160

Oh, let me guess, it's not the club's policy.

438

00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,600

It's not the club's policy, exactly.

439

00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,040

It's not our problem as well, unfortunately.

440

00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:11,720

So you do get a lot of that.

441

00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,560

So essentially, when we're speaking with the managerial staff,

442

00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,520

they said that they have a CCTV camera.

443

00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,600

And this was something we noted when we got the schematic

444

00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,720

of the building, you know, obviously cameras,

445

00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,400

not necessarily on the yacht club as well.

446

00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,080

You obviously look at the opposite side of the road

447

00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,080

to see if there's any coverage,

448

00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,080

but it came down to this one camera at the yacht club.

449

00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,320

A rather, convenient statement was made essentially

450

00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,520

saying that the CCTV camera was not theirs

451

00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,320

and that it belonged to the adjacent embassy.

452

00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,440

So of course, we need to go and speak to this embassy.

453

00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,600

Oh, I wont ask which embassy.

454

00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,200

Yes, I'm not going to log in a real name that one,

455

00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,440

I think, maybe a little bit too.

456

00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,760

So of course, you take this information, it wasn't the Russians,

457

00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:51,600

was it?

458

00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:52,600

No, it wasn't the Russians.

459

00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:53,440

No we're thankful here.

460

00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,160

Should I stop interrupting?

461

00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,880

So we have this information in mind, approached the embassy,

462

00:20:58,880 --> 00:20:59,960

discussed the camera.

463

00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:01,840

And essentially, that takes a bit of time.

464

00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:03,480

Embassy's are quite secure places.

465

00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,920

I know you've had experience in working

466

00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,600

with some of them as well.

467

00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,400

It takes a little bit of time to get in and speak

468

00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,480

to the right people.

469

00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,440

Once we did, we got to speak to the head of security

470

00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,880

and explained the severity of the situation.

471

00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,360

He agreed to show us all of the camera footage

472

00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:19,480

from the building.

473

00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,000

As it turns out, that camera belonged to the yacht club.

474

00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,960

We had been lied to.

475

00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,280

And obviously, very interesting when

476

00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,560

querying the specific camera with the club,

477

00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,400

how all the comments were made very quickly to say,

478

00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,640

it's not ours at all.

479

00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,240

So hang on a minute.

480

00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,840

So there's one camera, which has got whatever happened on it.

481

00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,480

They say it's not theirs.

482

00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,320

And the embassy, taking on a tour around,

483

00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:45,760

a guest on the outside of the building--

484

00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:46,280

Absolutely.

485

00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,520

--and the head of security, who I would imagine

486

00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,240

is somebody who really knows what they are doing, says,

487

00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,840

no, that's not our camera.

488

00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,120

Not their camera at all.

489

00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:54,720

OK.

490

00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,080

And it's quite interesting, because you can take

491

00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,280

the authority of that person, seeing as the embassy,

492

00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:01,440

actually owned the building to the yacht club as well.

493

00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,360

So they had all of this information.

494

00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,160

They knew exactly what was going on.

495

00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,760

And of course, yes, we have been lied to.

496

00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,720

So we go back to the yacht club, of course.

497

00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,000

You can imagine their faces when we start trying to burst in.

498

00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,640

They essentially refused to let us gain any

499

00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,760

entry to the property, refused to speak with us,

500

00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,600

prevented any further inquiries being conducted on site.

501

00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:23,160

But of course, much to their surprise,

502

00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,920

we'd actually done that work already,

503

00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,200

obtained the witness statements from the hospitality staff

504

00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,920

who had worked on the evening in question.

505

00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,200

So it makes the evidence that they've probably

506

00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,360

given them a little bit weak.

507

00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:35,600

Exactly, exactly.

508

00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:36,240

OK.

509

00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480

So the thing is, of course, you've got to bring everything

510

00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,520

into question, but when you've got quite an uncooperative site,

511

00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,240

it does start raising suspicions.

512

00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,400

So essentially, from here, we undertook an on-site

513

00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,560

reconstruction as well.

514

00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,520

This was to evaluate the statements made by the victim.

515

00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,000

And essentially to explore whether or not

516

00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,920

the account could have physically happened,

517

00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,480

because you don't actually know it.

518

00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,840

An onsite reconstruction of what?

519

00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,640

The actual sexual assault taking place.

520

00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,400

So obviously quite graphic, who did it?

521

00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,200

It was myself and a colleague.

522

00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,520

And her name's Anna.

523

00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:08,920

She's wonderful.

524

00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,560

We obviously sat down and spent a lot of time planning this out,

525

00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,840

making sure everyone was comfortable, making sure

526

00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,840

that obviously there weren't too many onlookers.

527

00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:17,840

OK.

528

00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:18,360

OK.

529

00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,160

I've got to speak on your behalf.

530

00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:21,400

I know you very well.

531

00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,280

I know nothing wrong would have gone on with that.

532

00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:25,800

Exactly.

533

00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,560

We may have a laugh and joke about a lot of things,

534

00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,960

but when you're looking at something so serious as it is,

535

00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,480

it has to be done professionally.

536

00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,920

So we put together this reconstruction,

537

00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,400

explored the account, did raise some doubts,

538

00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,800

because there was an interesting point about how this

539

00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,200

occurred on the curbside to the property,

540

00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,040

and certain measurements were taken about where that was,

541

00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,120

and sort of positions of these people.

542

00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:49,680

So we go through all of that evidence

543

00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,520

and produce all of the reports.

544

00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,040

And it actually turns out that the complainent

545

00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,120

had been stated to have taken drugs that evening.

546

00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:00,280

Hospitality staff gave a lot of accounts

547

00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,400

about how essentially this victim was almost causing part

548

00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,880

of the argument herself as well.

549

00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,320

Yeah.

550

00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,000

I've got mixed feelings about that one,

551

00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,600

because that doesn't make it her fault.

552

00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:12,800

Oh, no, absolutely not.

553

00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,240

And yes, the point is, is that, again, her account was

554

00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,520

as she gave it, the point is, is that anyone's account,

555

00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:25,040

including the complainent and also the perpetrator,

556

00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,200

when you've got drugs and alcohol going involved,

557

00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,560

it does muddy the waters, quite a lot there.

558

00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,480

Solicitors have this, dont they,

559

00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,920

I mean, lawyers can't put their own feelings into something.

560

00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,840

I mean, I'm not condemning one party or the other party.

561

00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,080

Of course, no.

562

00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,040

But they can't put their own opinions into something

563

00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,160

unless they have been told directly.

564

00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:53,400

And it's like the old one, of a duty lawyer going into somebody's

565

00:24:53,400 --> 00:25:00,280

cell and the accused saying, oh, I might have done it,

566

00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,040

but get me off it.

567

00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:02,880

Yeah.

568

00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:03,680

Yeah.

569

00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,960

He can't enter a plea of not guilty because his client

570

00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,160

has admitted it to him.

571

00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,160

Exactly.

572

00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:11,800

Yeah, that same kind of conjury of--

573

00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,320

when somebody doesn't say that, and you've

574

00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,080

oh I know where I'm going, with this, and

575

00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,800

I'm sure anybody listening does as well.

576

00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,560

It's the being that thing of duty bound, isn't it?

577

00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,000

But of course, there's a lot of issues here about the whole power

578

00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,880

and status and there are other aspects of the accounts

579

00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,640

essentially stating that the complainent

580

00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,040

was actually part of a prestigious family

581

00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,360

involved with the club.

582

00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:36,800

So there was lots of hierarchy, elements involved.

583

00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,120

A lot of people perhaps covering for other parts of the parties

584

00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:41,320

involved.

585

00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,880

So again, what you're looking at is something which on the surface

586

00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,960

can be a very genuine accusation coupled with evidence.

587

00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,560

But by speaking to everyone involved,

588

00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,960

there were lots of questions and doubts about the accounts

589

00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,800

given by essentially all parties concerned.

590

00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,640

Before we go any further and stay with this,

591

00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,600

I don't want to lose sight of the subject.

592

00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,640

But just talking of, Ive got this whole kind of quandry thing

593

00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,160

and moral issue, running backs through my head again,

594

00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,600

and thinking about something like this,

595

00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,960

thinking about the girl might have taken a substance, whatever she's

596

00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,640

done, that doesn't necessarily make her to blame for something

597

00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,560

that has happened. precisely.

598

00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,800

OK, it maybe an indicative of the nature of the complaint and so forth,

599

00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:29,360

but that's an entirely different issue.

600

00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:30,360

Yes.

601

00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:34,200

And we do get stuck with this moral issue sometimes.

602

00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,600

And most times, because you are, in this case, working

603

00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,040

for the client's defence, we're instructed by his solicitors,

604

00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,440

you have to do what the solicitor does

605

00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,440

and push it to one side a little bit.

606

00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,880

Which will remain neutral, remain factual.

607

00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:53,040

There's something that sticks in my mind, and it wasn't too long ago.

608

00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,400

We were dealing with a computer investigation.

609

00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,600

We got all these deleted files, back out of a computer,

610

00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,800

back out of a laptop.

611

00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,680

And there were elements on there which were not very savory.

612

00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,320

And I'm not just saying they were unsavoury

613

00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,160

they were frankly illegal.

614

00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,560

I'll say quickly, we weren't, in this case,

615

00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,000

talking about child pornography.

616

00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,840

But the guy, did rather like animals a little bit too much,

617

00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:20,640

and perhaps a little bit too affectionately,

618

00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,840

and I've probably said too much with that.

619

00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:29,920

Point of it is that it transcended across a moral line.

620

00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,360

Now, confidentiality to us is massively important.

621

00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:36,680

We will always happily to sign a confidentiality agreement.

622

00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:41,800

There is a paragraph in there, I know, which I couldn't quote.

623

00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,680

But it does say in the event that you've got something illegal,

624

00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,520

a client has got the responsibility to report it.

625

00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,480

Now, it's never happened, but I can remember in this instance.

626

00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,240

You know, I said, look, this is the content.

627

00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,920

It is illegal content.

628

00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:04,160

It is your content, you have to tell somebody, you have to tell the police.

629

00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,000

And the person in the turn was, oh, no, no, I can't do that.

630

00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,400

I can't do that.

631

00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,360

To which we had to say, if you don't, we will have to.

632

00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:14,200

Yes.

633

00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,040

And it was not an easy moment.

634

00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,520

I mean, in the event, in the end, they saw common sense.

635

00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:22,720

And yes, that is what they did.

636

00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,720

All the time I can remember going, hang on, we've got confidentiality

637

00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,600

on this side, and we've got doing the right thing

638

00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,920

in the moral issue on the other side.

639

00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,240

It's a mine field, isn't it?

640

00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:33,640

Because yeah, exactly that .

641

00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,200

we're sort of duty bound to report when you have this criminal aspect

642

00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,760

involved, or something illegal involved in the evidence

643

00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,120

that you're obtaining.

644

00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,040

But of course, yeah, you're balancing that with the act

645

00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,000

of staying true to the client's wishes, confidential,

646

00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,080

and reporting just.

647

00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,200

But yeah, when you get that blend of the two,

648

00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:54,520

you have to take the high road.

649

00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,760

You have to, as you say, transcend the case

650

00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,720

and look at what is morally right and correct to do.

651

00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:01,960

I'll tell you what the lesson of that is,

652

00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,080

if you ever come and listen to this podcast,

653

00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,400

and you want to hear two people just going off

654

00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,320

at an the entire tangent.

655

00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,200

What were we talking about? Oh yeah, criminal defense.

656

00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,720

Yeah, yeah, this private members, club, or--

657

00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:14,400

Yes, yeah, what happened in the end?

658

00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,400

Yeah, back to the yacht club.

659

00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,920

So it was quite difficult because, as I said before,

660

00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,800

it comes into that case of muddying the waters.

661

00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,880

You can't get a true account from someone.

662

00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,840

So essentially, the QC at the time,

663

00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,280

and the police essentially ended up

664

00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,800

dropping the matter entirely.

665

00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,680

We provided evidence to say all parties concerned

666

00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,800

are probably problematic.

667

00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,240

But at the same time, there was not enough cooperation

668

00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,680

or evidence to substantiate the essential victims

669

00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,680

claims at the time.

670

00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,080

So the charges got dropped?

671

00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,680

Charges got dropped.

672

00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,080

Was everyone concerned happy about that?

673

00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:53,400

I mean, the defendant, the complainant, the CPS, police.

674

00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,320

It did transpire that once things had sort of watered down,

675

00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,680

that the complainant came back with this sort of new view

676

00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,080

that perhaps things had spiralled out of control

677

00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,600

and basically went and reflected again on everything

678

00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,040

that had been provided.

679

00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,600

I think everyone was thankful for the matter

680

00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,680

to essentially be dealt with and gone away.

681

00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,520

So as I say, CPS dropped the charges,

682

00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,440

and police took no other action.

683

00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,200

Harry, I'm looking at the time, which is disappointing,

684

00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,360

because I said at the beginning of all this,

685

00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,560

about never being involved in murders,

686

00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,480

because it's unlikely, however, I did collate defense,

687

00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,040

evidence, in one once, and I'd want to talk about it,

688

00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,640

but there's no time left.

689

00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,040

I hear part two coming along with it.

690

00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,640

Yeah, I'm a- do you know what

691

00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,480

I can talk for hours on this subject.

692

00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,120

I know you can, and I've got a number of cases to relate.

693

00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,600

So should we do that?

694

00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,080

Absolutely, let's do it again.

695

00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,760

OK.

696

00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,160

Just as a little summary, though, criminal defense work

697

00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,520

as a private detective.

698

00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,640

does not normally involve high drama.

699

00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:02,080

I mean, it is interesting, and it has surprising little side

700

00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,520

issues that happen, but it doesn't have much in common

701

00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,280

with an Agatha Christie Novel.

702

00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,800

Or assembling the suspects in one room

703

00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,440

and making a dramatic reveal at the end.

704

00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,600

In reality, it's often days of detailed research,

705

00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,400

practical evidence proving, listing witnesses,

706

00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:25,160

recorded statements, using them to uncover those small aspects

707

00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,520

that may be expanded to corroborate evidence,

708

00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,840

like those calculations of how long the shadow will be.

709

00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,200

What was on television on the particular night?

710

00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,880

Or even getting the witness to recall it?

711

00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,840

Or how long it takes to walk from A to B on the wet January

712

00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,120

day, but that's a story for another time?

713

00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,920

Or as you've described, reconstructing an event

714

00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,080

to see if it's feasible and checking the words of a supposedly

715

00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:50,920

impartial witness.

716

00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:51,920

Exactly.

717

00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:53,160

It is all of those small details that

718

00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,320

culminate in the evidence you need for a case.

719

00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:56,840

Right.

720

00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:01,760

Part two, if I can tie you down and you can tie me down.

721

00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,920

That's going to be a struggle.

722

00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:07,800

Harry, am I any good at this?

723

00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,520

What do you mean you and you get at this?

724

00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,000

This whole investigator thing, is it working out for me?

725

00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,640

You've been doing this since prehistoric times.

726

00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,240

Well, I'm not that old, but I tell you what I think you're amazing.

727

00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,560

I think people should come and listen to the whole conversation

728

00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,560

where we discuss surveillance, with someone who's

729

00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,200

had a few months of experience versus a few years.

730

00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160

Listen now on Detective Diaries.

731

00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,680

Again, thank you to all of our listeners who

732

00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,200

have liked, subscribed and recommended us.

733

00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:35,680

Listen to season two.

734

00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,720

Coming up, part two, of course, of this episode on Criminal

735

00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,120

Defense Work, a historic delve into the life of Frederick

736

00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,040

Abberline, the lead detective in the Jack the Ripper case,

737

00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,080

fascinating interview with criminology lecturer Emma

738

00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,040

Short.

739

00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,480

Part two of our conversation with James Lupton

740

00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,840

and more of his interpreting experiences in Columbia,

741

00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,640

together with a second visit to the Guildford Shakespeare

742

00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,920

Company and a wealth of insights into the world of private

743

00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,800

investigation and the many secrets of our profession.

744

00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,240

Please contact us.

745

00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,240

We'd genuinely love to hear from you.

746

00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,960

You can send an email to podcast@private-detectives.co.uk,

747

00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,880

the emails in the show notes.

748

00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,880

And if you have missed any episodes,

749

00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,720

they're all available on Spotify, Apple Podcast,

750

00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,800

or wherever you get your podcasts.

751

00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,560

If you haven't heard it, listen to season one.

752

00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,640

And now, our sign off message.

753

00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,080

Keep listening.

754

00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:39,440

And until next time, stay curious and keep seeking the truth.

755

00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:46,880

We hope you enjoyed today's podcast,

756

00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,960

brought to you by answers investigation and UK fingerprint.

757

00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,440

If you've enjoyed our conversation and want to learn more

758

00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,280

about the fascinating world of investigations,

759

00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,040

be sure to check out private detectives, answers investigation.

760

00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,040

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761

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and professional services, helping you find the answers

762

00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,040

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763

00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,200

If you're interested in fingerprint analysis

764

00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,960

or require specialist fingerprint services,

765

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don't miss UK fingerprint.

766

00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,960

As one of the leading fingerprint companies in the UK,

767

00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,240

they provide everything from identification

768

00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:24,800

to background checks, working with individuals, businesses,

769

00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,480

financial institutions, and gambling companies.

770

00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:34,600

To find out more, visit www.private-detectives.co.uk.

771

00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,040

That's a minus sign.

772

00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:41,160

And www.ukfingerprint.co.uk.

773

00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,440

These are your go-to resources for investigative solutions

774

00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:46,640

and fingerprint expertise.

775

00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,200

You can call their office on 02-0715-8-0333-1

776

00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,840

Thanks once again for tuning in.

777

00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,760

Until next time, stay curious and keep seeking the truth.

778

00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,920

(upbeat music)

779

00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,500

(upbeat music)

[END PLAYBACK]

Podcast

'Criminal Defence'

TRANSCRIPT

Criminal Defence

"searching the world for answers"