A fascinating discussion with James Lupton, a Spanish Interpreter with a lifetime of experience in Colombia and Spanish speaking countries 'Detective Diaries'

Spanish Interpretation

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James Lupton

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Detective Diaries Podcast

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TRANSCRIPT

Spanish Interpreter
Part 2

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Welcome to Detective Diaries brought to you by Private Detectives' Answers Investigation.

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If you are captivated by the art of deduction, the thrill of solving the unsolvable, or the

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enigmatic world of private investigation, you've just found your new favourite podcast.

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Detective Diaries is where secrets unravel and the truth is always a clue away, presented

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by Private Detectives' Answers Investigation. Each episode contains offbeat conversations

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about the real people involved in investigation.

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And the last time I spoke to James Lapton, we just talked for so long that we had to put this

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into two episodes. James, brilliant to see you again.

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No, good to see you again as well. We're back at the Dike, which is the best recording studio in

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Brighton, I think even though it's a very impromtu one. There you go. It's a couple of

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pints of Harvies, right? Yeah, well, now, you're talking my language.

w

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Hi James, could we just have a couple of pints of Harvies please?

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Thank you. James, when were you speaking before? I remember you describing interpreting.

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Note how I'm now using the word interpreting and not translating, you're laughing, but it's a

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really good point. I mean, that's all interpreting, translating differential is so important,

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but you described interpreting as an intimate process. What do you mean by that?

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I mean, first of all, they are really different. Interpreting and translating is very different.

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I do love translating too, and I love it. I really like being able to sit with the text and produce

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good English out of something, especially if it's been good Spanish. That's brilliant, that process,

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but it's very totally different from interpreting. I think I talk about

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interpreting as being intimate. There are two ways, I think. I mean, I think last week I talked

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about booth interpreting when you're in a bubble, as it were. That's really intimate in some ways

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as well, because it's as if you're in a darkened room and it's just you and the speaker and you're

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producing what they're saying, but that's not the kind of intimacy that I'm meant. I think

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what I mean is much more, I'm lucky enough that I quite often get a job when I'll be with somebody

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for a week, and I'll be taking them from meeting to meeting. We'll go to the FCDO, the foreign office,

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we'll go to the house of the parliament, we'll go to a public meeting, we'll go different kinds of

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meetings, and you're walking around in between meetings, you're talking to the person, if you get on,

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you don't always get on with them, but if you get on with them, and normally you do, because you've

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got this bond, you kind of need each other, I need them for the money, they need me to be able to

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and so you develop a relationship of some sort, and they do depend on you to be them, or at the very

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least to represent them, and so this goes back to what I was saying, again last week about trying to

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talk to people beforehand, but here you're talking to someone continuously for a period of some time,

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and they are talking about very often, kind of work I do, people who've been receiving threats,

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people who are really desperate to, or it's very important to them to get their message over,

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to be heard, this generates a mutual, just a mutuality between you, but then sometimes you're working

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with someone who you just sort of think, 'My God, this person's amazing!' And I did, I had one,

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earlier this year I was working with a, with a human rights lawyer from a Central American

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country, and she was just, her story was compelling, she was a great storyteller, the way she constructed

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what she was saying, and also I realised over the week, the way she, without compromising what she

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was saying, but the way she adapted what she was saying to different audiences, was just, it was just

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really impressive, and that week included a sort of an informal lunch, and so there she was able to

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speak much more off the record about what was going on, much more intimately about what was going on,

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and she just told, she told a story about her grandfather and her own children, and I'd been working

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with her for three days also by, by this time, and I, I found myself listening to her, and it's fine,

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I knew what I was going to say, and then it came my turn to be her, and I started crying,

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and I, that's never happened to me before, and it doesn't sound very professional,

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but what she said, it sounds very human, and that's how everybody took it, I kind of got away with it,

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so she reached over and embraced me and said, and then I told the story, and I think obviously because

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she had been crying herself, I mean if your client's crying, and I think you're allowed to cry as well,

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and as I say, so that was a product of all of those things I've tried to, to describe,

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I think, and then at the end of that week working with her, she wrote me a message,

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and she said, and this is where people, I think I said last week, if it's in, if it survives the edit,

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I don't consider myself to be bilingual, I think I've got good Spanish, people who speak Spanish will,

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will get that, when I say one of that, to say, she said, she wrote to me, she said, "Nadia

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más ha logrado ser yo sin ser yo, pero tú lo conseguiste"., and what that means is that no one else

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has been able to be me without being me, but you managed it, and that was, for someone who does the

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work that I do, and who had come to identify very closely with this, this very special person,

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was amazing, it was a great, wonderful feeling, so that's what I mean, being an intimate process.

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James, just something you said, which is a bit off topic, but I don't want to be alarmed you, but

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we've always believed in quite live, but what people are saying, that is the broadcast, there is no editing.

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So, is that something you want to go back over and change?

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sure.

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That whole process sells, I can't find the words. I mean, is there,

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a time where you've been really put on the spot and you weren't expecting it?

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Well, I mean, I can tell you one, which is actually just a bit funny, and it might,

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I think it's quite funny, it may sound like I'm being put on the spot, just the person I'm working

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with being a bit cheeky. There's another guy that I work with quite often who's, who comes over,

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every now and again, he's a human rights lawyer from Columbia, and so he'll be giving a presentation,

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and then it will get to the stage where he has to talk about lost falsas-positive, which were

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civilians who, I don't even think I need to say allegedly anymore, because some people have been

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found guilty for having done it, where poor people mainly were kidnapped by members of the armed

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forces and then taken to another part of the country where they appeared and were presented,

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often dressed in uniform, or with gut weapons by their sides and presented as being

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gorillas that have been killed in combat, when there were actually civilians who had been kidnapped

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and killed, ouch, in order to, for a reward, really, people might get a promotion, they might get a

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night off, things like that, and it meant that these statistics looked better, with several thousand

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people that happened too. So it gets to the point where my client gets to speak about these

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falsas-positive, extra judicial killings, and he has his tendency to say, stop them and say,

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"Oh, well, James knows more about the falsas-positive than I do, so I'll just let him tell you about them."

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Which, of course, is very unprofessional of him, and I'm the professional, so I say there's no way I'm

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going to do that for you, and it's not true that I know more about them than you, but it's a little bit

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uncomfortable, because it does have, he normally does it in a safe setting, but if he does it in a

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public setting, he's done it in Parliament before, so he's been in a public meeting, and I think he

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shouldn't do that, because it does put me on the spot a little bit, because it suggests that

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my words matter when it's actually his words that matter right there for his words, not for my words.

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I'm going to test you. But we joke about it. I'm going to test your vocabulary, James.

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What is the Spanish word for meerkat? Suricata. Sorry, again? Suricata. You told me about it,

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because, yeah, I was in the high court, I think I mentioned before that I did a fairly long high court

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case a few years ago, and there was a barrister, a apologise to the judge, I was on in the booth doing

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his, doing the simultaneous for him at the time, and he apologised to the judge for popping up and

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down like a meerkat all through the morning. And as I was about to begin that phrase, because we do

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things more or less, I can talk about this a bit, it might be interesting to you, we more or less do

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things in real time when we're doing, when we're doing simultaneous, I was thinking, and then I realised

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that I actually knew what Spanish for meerkat was, because I fairly recognised a bit of,

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bit of a vocabulary, but I like animals, and there was just something I knew. I think I've talked to

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some kids about meerkats when we were watching a documentary or something like that. So I was able to

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render that into Spanish, I was quite satisfied by that. And it's similar when you've got sort of

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particularly a dramatic uses, or people tell jokes, jokes notoriously often don't translate,

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because they're culturally laden, but sometimes they do, or there might be a joke in your

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repatriate that seems as appropriate. And I must say it's on rare occasions, but on some occasions it is

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possible in real time to find an equivalent or to find an idiom that is the same or that is appropriate

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and to use it. And I can't tell you how satisfying that is. If you can't think it up, then the one

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golden rule about simultaneous interpreting is if you can't think of something or either walk around

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it, find another set of words, or just go the mundane route, just be mundane about it, as long

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if you get the meaning across, but when you are able to get little bits of wit or

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idiomatic use of language in it, it's a great feeling. It's expressing meaning, isn't it?

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I can remember interview in a witness in English, a patient to add, and he was somebody who

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believed that he had a very, very articulate and wide vocabulary, but the unfortunate thing was that

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he would use a word that had no relation to whatever he was saying. And I remember he kept talking

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about somebody being extremely enigmatic and therefore they were very clear and trying to

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connect one or the other, and realize that he would meant the word erudite rather than enigmatic.

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And he just kept doing this so that the whole witness interview almost needed its own

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translator from his more English to another forward English. And I'm sure you face bigger

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circumstances than those. What do you do when somebody just isn't making any sense?

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It's really hard. It's a nightmare. Again, I would say that it does to an extent depend on context.

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I mean, if it's happening in a court case, then I think it's up to the lawyer. It's their job to

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sort it out, to ask a follow-up question or to say that's a strange word to choose in that context.

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Are you sure that's correct? And then they can sort it out in the same way they would in the

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in the monolingual case that you've described. But there are other times, and it's happened to me,

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the other thing is that it's not always not necessarily just that they're using the inappropriate

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word, but they just might be a windbag. They might be really pompous and self-satisfied.

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But if they're receiving an international award or something like that,

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then and you're doing it to the public at the award ceremony, then I confess that I will,

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I think it's legitimate to try and make it more coherent, to structure it a bit.

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Which is what the monolingual listener will be doing.

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And somehow they'll say, if you're hearing something, if you're listening to something cold that comes

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from a different first language, then you don't have the same clues and cultural clues that a speaker

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who is understands the original language would have in order to sort out what this windbag is saying.

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So I do think in times like that, especially if their own prestige is quite important, or if the event,

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the event needs to run smoothly, then I think it's legitimate to reorder it sometimes,

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even occasionally to find the correct word rather than the incorrect word. But it sets your tummy

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going a bit. It's not a very nice feeling. And sometimes you can't do anything about it,

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sometimes you just have to be incoherent. But I think that's really what I should do.

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So I hope I'm not going to be drawn out of the business for saying what I've just said.

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I keep it to a minimum, but sometimes I think it's legitimate.

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I'm just imagining conceiving a John Cleese or Monty Python moments with some of it.

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Yeah.

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Okay, so you've really, hopefully, delineated the difference between translation and interpretation.

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What makes you a good interpreter? In fact, do you think you were a good interpreter?

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That's put a y'all in the spot.

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No, I do think I'm a good interpreter.

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I do. I've seen films of myself working. I tend to obviously pick up errors. We all make

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mistakes. We all make errors. I think it's inevitable. I sometimes worry that it means I'm not as

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good as I think I am. But I think I'm good. I think I'm accurate on the whole.

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But I also do think, and I think this is what makes me a good interpreter. And this is what people

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who know, you know, the bilingual people who come up to me at the end is what they say,

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that I am empathetic. I am able to inhabit the person that I'm working for,

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and reproduce the feel of who they are.

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Does technology change your work?

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Yes, it has a lot. I mean, the most dramatic, for me, is being COVID.

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OK.

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I and COVID in many ways have been good for me because a lot, there would have been jobs in the past

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that I wouldn't get because they were a meeting in New York. And I'd say to them, it's OK,

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I'll take a price cut and I'll pay for the, you know, I'll incorporate the airfare in my,

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in my fee. And that sometimes worked. But with COVID, those meetings were held virtually.

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And so I and my colleagues were being asked to do meetings that we wouldn't have been asked to do

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if we had, if it had been pre-COVID. And this was over Zoom. And so the technology of virtual meeting

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places, Zoom is the first one that had a simultaneous interpreting feature to it. Others do now,

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as well. And you can be put into what's called a virtual booth. There are two channels or three

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channels or four channels. And you work it like you would if you were in a interpretation booth

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in a conference or something. You just pick the language. The audience picks the language that they

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want to listen in. And it happens. And that's fine. It works really well. If certain conditions are met,

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the connection has to be good and it often isn't. And people have to abide by our rules, which they

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normally don't. So we say, it's really important you have a decent headset with a good microphone.

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It's important you're in a quiet room. Try to have a room that's got carpets or curtains and not

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in a bathroom because they echo. If you're living by a busy street close the windows,

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things like that. And above all, because sound quality is not as good, remember that you're being

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interpreted and break up what you're saying because the contamination, we call it contamination,

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between what's being said and our own voices is much more marked in a Zoom call than it is in

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proper, you know, in interpreting with a proper kit. And that means that even though it's marvellous

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and great, it can be really stressful to work on Zoom.

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Draw on other platforms are available. Well, we all learnt to use them during COVID and the

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message in addition to the rules that you've just stated, one of the biggest ones was please do

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make sure you have your trousers on and at least a desk because the dog may come in and you have

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to get up and fly off. So you know, what about AI? I mean AI translation services, now,

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to my mind it's still in its infancy, but I may be updated and I know it might correct me with that.

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And I'll be honest, I use them, you know, but I had to see the other day at a week or so ago,

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I needed to write a letter to somebody in Bucharest, I work, company in Bucharest who we were

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crunchy last. And we should vote in English, but then I wanted, although I knew the recipient spoke

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fluent English, I've met them in Bucharest, but also wanted, at a courtesy, to put it into a romanian.

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So everybody else does went on to Google Translator and the AI Service Company, which

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translated it into a romanian and and put that in as well, but just a precaution, I mentioned earlier,

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you know, I have a romanian colleague and I just asked her to have a look at it.

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I printed it out by the time she finished, I think there were more ink marks on their correcting

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and changing, not necessarily the vocabulary, but the context and the way that it was said,

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than the word type words on the page. What do you think to that?

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I think you've nailed it, really, I think that that's the issue, I think that we, people,

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I'm trying to often speak in its Translator, don't tell you the truth about the origin of the text,

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and so they will send us something that's been written by AI and we'll say it looks like it's been,

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who wrote this? What I normally do is I say, could you send me the original?

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And they'll say no, we can't really do that. There's a sort of a growing science of working out,

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you know, what are the, what are the tells of something that's been written in AI?

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But it's getting better and better, it's a tricky one, really. I edit texts that have been written by

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a combination of machines or that have been machine translated, I do that, it's part of what I do.

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Because beforehand I specialized in, I do one of my areas that I do quite a work in this academic

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things that have been written by non-native English speakers in English, and because I know

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a lot of the sort of the traps that native Spanish speakers fall into when they're writing in English,

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I've got a feel for trying, for editing that work. Ideally you go back to the author, but it's not always

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possible, and you have to develop the same sort of skills with AI, I think, as well. You have to

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sort of begin to realize what kind of errors it can make. But I also use AI in my work.

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I will sometimes use it if we've been sent something very late that we need for preparation,

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for a piece of interpreting that we're doing. It's a nightmare, it can be really difficult

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getting texts out of clients, because it's a better prepared you are, as with everything,

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the better prepared you are, the more you've read around it, the specialist vocabulary,

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what the subject matter is, the more appropriate. It's what the preparation is about.

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All of that, the more opportunity you've had to do that, the better job you're going to do,

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and if you're waiting on a document, I've been presented documents as I'm working in the past,

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which isn't really very helpful. So if I get them late, I've put them through AI,

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because it helps to, it gives you a text, a five-page text, that I would have had time to translate,

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but then you don't reproduce it, you have it there as a reference document, for instance,

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so that can be useful. I also find, especially when I'm translating, you can ask it questions,

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I'm thinking this, what about that? You can use it as an advisor, again, you don't take it as

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gospel, but it can have ideas that you haven't thought of, or that can be useful, but I would use it

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as a supporting tool, I certainly don't say do this job for me, but it's moving on,

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a pace, isn't it? Who knows what's going to happen, is they're getting better?

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As you know, I'm a bleeding heart liberal from what you've heard about the kind of work that I do,

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so there's those concerns, there's concerns about us being undercut in the market, about people

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being replaced, about slave labor in the, in the global south, not slave labor, but very poorly

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paid labor that's being used to create these large language models, there's the amazingly

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damaging environmental footprint of all of the coolants that they that they need,

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it is not environmentally sustainable, this next bit of the capitalist economy that is being

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developed, so I've got concerns about all of all of those things.

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Thank you for that James, not James behind the bar, but James Lipson, who I've had the most

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pleasant afternoon with, "Gracias de Nuevo por ares cuachawa detective diaries,

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nos present contrarian Spotify and Apple podcast,

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odon de descargas tus podcastes." And it's now a Scuchando a James Lupton,

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and Detective Diaries, as the way.

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Hola, soy James Lupton, intérprete y traductor.

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Ven a escucharme en Detective Diaries.,

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trabajando desde el Tribunal Superior de Inglaterra hasta la zona rural de Colombia.

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Hi, I'm James Lupton, interpreter and translator. Come and listen to me on Detective Diaries,

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talking about my experiences working from the English high court to the clumbian countryside.

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Send an email to podcast@private-detectives.co.uk,

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This episode takes us from his birth and childhood in the County of Dorset

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It's a reminder of his enduring legacy in British crime history.

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The story of Frederick Abelheim is available right now,

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