Detective Diaries - Podcast 'Moonlighting'

TRANSCRIPT

'Moonlighting'

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Welcome to Detective Diaries, brought to you by Private Detective' Answers Investigation.

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If you are captivated by the art of deduction, the thrill of solving the unsolvable or the

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enigmatic world of private investigation, you've just found your new favorite podcast.

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Detective Diaries is where secrets unravel and the truth is always a clue away.

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Presented by Private Detective's answers investigation, each episode's contain off

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beat conversations about the real people involved in investigation.

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Detective Diaries is about tradecraft and everything connected to Private

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Detectives Answers Investigation. I am hosting today, so heaven help you,

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but we're going to step out the dark alleys and into the fluorescent glow of the corporate

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office. We usually talk about tradecraft or famous detectives or Shakespeare for some reason.

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Oh yes, we sponsored them, but today's mystery is happening right under the nose of HR

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departments everywhere, moonlighting. People working two full-time jobs at once, juggling

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secret laptops and keeping the cameras off to protect their double lives. But my problem,

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whenever I hear the term moonlighting is getting the theme music to the tv series out of my head,

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if you are under the age of about, I don't know, 107 you won't have a clue what I'm talking about,

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but it was the series back in the, I don't know, the 80s and 90s can't remember,

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but it launched the career of Bruce Willis. He played opposite,

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Cybill Shepherd, one of the best detective series ever, such fun. We can't play the music,

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which we would love to because of copyright. Anyway, back to the subject, and moonlighting.

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I'm going to sit with Harry who has got loads of experience in the practical side of this,

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but just thinking about it, is it a victimless hustle in an expensive world, or a breach of trust

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that borders on corporate espionage?. Today we are going to go undercover to hear from an investigator

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who's hired to track digital footprints, physical footprints, and the employees who live a lie

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to collect two paychecks, yours and one from someone else. So grab your coffee, lock your screen,

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things are about to get very, very complicated. You are right, it can be complicated,

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so let's actually break this down. So moonlighting is the term, as you've rightfully said,

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describing this second job, it was actually came around about 1880s and then came back into trend

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about 1950s and what we're talking about as these people, as you say, people are on the payroll

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but off the grid. So a lot of corporate clients will contact us, obviously various reasons,

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but they normally have a hunch about when an employee is perhaps moonlighting or there are some

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bits of evidence which would suggest that something untoward is going on. I've got a few examples

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of this, a particular example I can raise actually involved a solicitor. Now, this involved a

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solicitor who was actually breaking his non-compete and to those who don't understand what a non-compete is,

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this is a contractual restriction. I understand what a non-compete is because I've worked with

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this non-compete before. But those who don't know exactly, it's preventing an employee or partner

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from working for a competitor or setting up a competing business-it's is designed to protect

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legitimate business interests like trade secrets, customer relations and proprietary information.

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So of course in the legal world a very, very important thing to have in contracts.

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I'm going to interrupt you because you know the biggest indicator in the workplace or something

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like this going on is when you've got the bod who used to be diligent but now all he's doing is

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constantly checking his personal phone or his laptop during office hours and he's disappearing

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out at lunchtime standing outside the building making phone calls because he's keeping the other thing going.

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Exactly, exactly. And it may not even be something that you see in the workplace sometimes it's

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something which is happening at night. Of course the second job is something that they won't touch

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in the daytime but any early hours of the morning, perhaps the odd day where they've been ill they're

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spending their time and resources into this second business. So coming back to this solicitor we've

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been contacted by a firm, obviously cant name their names. We work extensively for and they reached out

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regarding solicitor who they believe was working for another firm. So as it turned out actually he

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was your average solicitor had a very ordinary life turning up not really putting a foot wrong.

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He was living a double life. instead of working for a competitor he'd actually set up his own business.

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He was providing legal consultancy for rival clients obviously massive breach of contract there.

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Obviously there's many reasons as to why he would go about this unfortunately main one usually is

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money, but beyond this we were informed that this solicicitor actually was aware of very client sensitive

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information so there was quite a big ethical concern that he may be exploiting this information

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selling it on. So digital trails were close, we could never quite get to the end of it digitally

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so of course what do we do, we put surveillance together. Crucially a lot of times in this case it was

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early morning starts showing it was actually attending a tiny odd office base before he went into work

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and this was obviously be where he was conducting this second business. So again keeping it very

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very separate from all of his main work, keeping it very well hidden, but actually what he was doing

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was getting rival competitors involved into his own business. There's a theory about that.

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If somebody is using working time to go and run their own business, then they are effectively

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using the money that they're being paid, so therefore the employer has got a right to the benefits

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of the business that the person set up. I haven't explained that very well but

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but no you're legally they could make a claim for it. Exactly right. Exactly. Yeah you've done that

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on company time, our company time, and therefore why should we not be invested in something that you

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were clearly doing on our watch. So yeah there is normally quite big big claims especially again when

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you get into this legal aspect, where you've got sensitive ,client sensitive information ,these

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bits of paper shouldn't be going to any other solicitors let alone rivals. So massive breach of

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contract there. So I guess the employee really could also be forced or sued to repay the wages.

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So he's earned, somebody has paid him for not working or her for not working. Exactly that, exactly that

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and of course something to be aware of is that those claims can be quite massive if you're doing

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this over such a long period of time. So it;s theft a fraud? Yes. Yeah it's a good question. I mean theft

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is technically right here because it's theft of company resources, time, and your commitment as well.

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So yeah there is a bit of a debate there to be had, but I would certainly go on the basis of theft really

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when you look at it that way. Certainly as a company they're going to see as theft so quite big theft.

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But coming to the end of the story what we essentially did, bit of surveillance putting all

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together these early morning starts, put all the cases together, and again we're obtaining evidence

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that can be used in tribunal cases. So all of this evidence is admissible. We're working very

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closely with HR representatives to make sure that everything is done legally, and in the correct format.

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So again, it's quite a structured and can be quite a quick and intensive time, when you're putting together

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the digital bits of evidence, and the surveillance tactics that we use. So this was a solicitor that

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you were following. Indeed. So they were working for another firm? Yes. Well no, so he set up a

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competing business and was taking rival competitors into his own business. Good grief, and nobody had noticed?

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Nobody had noticed. Nobody had noticed. Very unassuming as I say he was he run of the mill solicitor.

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He was experienced. He was a senior solicitor. He had been around for many many years and clearly

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perhaps what he was being paid was not enough, and therefore decided to take the different stance and

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set up his own business. I don't know the answer to that, but been in the UK would have thought that

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law society would have something to say about that or that. I don't know. I mean he must

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have been registered on both businesses with the law society which is one of their requirements and

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thats. Yeah. Why do people do it? Oh absolutely. do you know ,further more to that. I think getting into

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the grips of his business as it turned out things were not compliant. This was very hush hush.

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Telephone calls behind the scenes. So if anything he made it even worse for himself because what he

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was actually doing was providing supposed legal advice not even registered under a proper outfit

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to rival companies. So what we're saying is is the work that he was actually doing probably wasn't

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even verifiable, probably wasn't even admissible. I don't want to moralize on this. It is probably

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wrong to moralize. No, I will moralize on this. Okay great. You want to go and set up your own business. No problem

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at all ,people do it in life. It's how businesses start and found ,when you've got a job if you want to

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go and start a business, do one of two things, ask your boss if you can have permission to do so.

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You know, tell him it's not going to, it's not going to intrude on the business or leave.

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If you don't do that that business has not got a foundation because it was never proper in the first

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place. It's done on a shoestring on the back of somebody else's money. Absolutely. Unfortunately

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the most common aspect where we see this, is in not necessarily construction but your average handyman.

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people who are working for traders who then turn up and say 'oh sorry I was ill yesterday' when

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actually what they were doing is going around Pete's house and putting up his his fencing or fixing

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the hole in the roof, whatever it might be a, bit of extra cash in hand tends to be one of the most

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common aspects of when we're looking into moonlighting ,tends to be the common perpetrator, not to put

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the pin on that industry of course, but it does fairly common. Quite possibly using your employer's

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tools and equipment which is going to wear them out. Yes exactly. Exactly. And again our evidence is

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really crucial in this because not only are you catching someone who as you say is using other tools ,but

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what exactly are they doing? Are they actually working in a sense that's not up to scratch or not

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up to code? Are we then going to have to inform the person who's hired them that you've actually

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hired someone who's either breaking a non-compete or simply moonlighting? They're not doing a good job

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for you. They're probably doing it on the cheap and that's why you got a cheap deal. So you can

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imagine how some of these people turn around where they realize what they thought was a great deal

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is no good work at all coming from that. Okay so that's an example of probably the most

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common thing when somebody goes and sets up another company, whether it's in competition or something else

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entirely, but come let's hear some others. Sure ,so I go, an example comes to mind of an

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individual who's working for a water company, obviously, again can't say who he was, but what he was

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actually doing is working as a reservoir walker. What this essentially means is that literally

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was walking up and down the reservoir doing checks and sort of keeping everything above board.

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He'd been off sick for a whole year. Now to some companies that's quite significant amount of time,

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to other companies that can be quite short amount of time, but our work was prompted by other team

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members. Now they also had someone else who was sick, someone who's severely sick, completely

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unwell, and they were concerned that this employee who had been off for a year did not have a

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genuine illness, or at least it was falsely claimed to the extend that it was. So they were informing

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senior staff ,and the senior staff went and came to us. So in this instance, very much like any of the

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other cases, we were looking at things like a digital trail, but more significantly what is he up to

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using surveillance. Now a lot of work initially proved that the medical issue was completely fake

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to be frank, or at least the extent of was completely false, and it was something designed to

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essentially give him that time off. What he was actually doing? Well he was working for a car

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dealership. He was delivering cars up and down the country to other dealerships as well, and we only

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found this out by looking physically, and we also have some lovely photographs of this chap holding

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trade plates with the vehicles in question. So got him bang to rights on that aspects, but again it

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was a bitof work traveling up and down the country, a lot of surveillance which we put together

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provided to the water company, to which they then dealt with the matter accordingly. So this is all

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physical stuff. Yeah physical, actually sitting there following the guy seeing what he's doing,

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photographing him, and getting wonderful photographs with the red and white trade plates. Exactly.

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which is so indicative of not walking around reservoir isnt it it? Exactly yeah.

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Far from walking he was doing a lot of driving and again this is it. It's the physical aspects. A lot

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of the time data can be very helpful. A lot of computer resources, terminals, what people have

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accessed, again all very crucial bits of information, but what is someone actually doing in that time?

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Whether they are actually off sick or not. Let's go and prove that. and do you know what was quite interesting, actually

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you know we talk about work from home aspects ,that's obviously quite a new thing. That's sort of

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hitting the job markets and so forth. We can still prove this, obviously it's a little bit trickier,

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in the sense that someone is remote and they are home working ,so how do you prove that? A lot of

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corporate entities will have their own software that of course checks these things ,but if not we have

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our own solutions. We can follow the digital trails, we can prove keystrokes or history,

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identify the communications to competitors, and things like that, but actually there are

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far more simpler methods, a doorstep. Now I know you know well and truly about doorsteps, but in this

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case it's very simple. You're simply turning up when someone should be staying at home or perhaps

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should be working, whether that be on cameras or so forth, are they actually answering the door?

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Are they actually at the home in question or are they somewhere completely different? So, again, a

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simple doorstep can give you a lot of valuable insight into what they may or may not be doing at home.

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The loveliest case wasn't one of ours, it's just so maybe laugh, it was that police officer quite recently,

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met police, he's on paid sick leave, and he was running a mobile pizza business.

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But he got apprehended and caught why would he do it? I mean who wants a dishonest policeman?

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come on ,and we went away from that. He was dismissed, tribunal just deemed it gross misconduct.

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Yeah of course it is. It's different if you've liaised with your employer. A lot of people in this day

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and age they're financially feeling stretched, going to somebody and saying 'look I am having trouble,

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I'm having trouble' paying the mortgage, you knowl, I'd love to pay rise, but you know we've done all that

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bit and so forth. I need to get a part-time job, how do you feel about that if it doesn't interfere

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with my work? Exactly. most employers will listen. Yes, most employees should listen of course if they

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don't.They should listen. have to listen. Okay . a lot dont, your right. We need to have, people need to have that open

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conversation, because a lot of the times what we're finding are these people who simply just go out

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and do it ,and land themselves in so much trouble. All of that benefit, all of that money gained

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goes out of the window when you're taken into court, so what's the point in the first place?

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Well I think the the always that rationale for somebody is ,oh I'm clever I will get away with it,

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get away with it. I mean the epitome a couple years ago. only about a year or so ago.

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was a chap who worled for one of the councils ,and he was doing four full-time roles simultaneously

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across four different councils, none of which had noticed. He got three years for the sheer scale

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of the dishonesty. And the scale there is just fascinating. Why, when you think it's working once

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do you mount up and do it twice ,a third ,or four times? It comes back to my question earlier

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on to you, you know is it theft and is it fraud and it's a big moral, It's a big moral

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question. Some people do it, you can actually have sympathy, simply they need the money.

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Yes. You know these are harsh, harsh times, but again if an employee's lies about their hours

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of work. If they're, particualrly working for a direct competitor ,which is not unlikely because their quite

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possibly doing a job that they know, which can transfer into somebody elses in direct

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competition, you know they can face claims of damages. They can be forced to repay the wages.

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Which of course is quite tricky to some money after its already spent all of those wages

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which have just come in. Well here's an invitation and it's not an advert. I'm not trying to

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do this to plug ourselves or so forth, but particularly for corporate clients for the MDs and the FDs

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that way. If you've got concerns about this, feel free, pick the phone up, the numbers in the show

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notes. I won't repeat it here but just to have a talk, and talk the matter through, we can probably

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point you in the right direction about where to go, and you know if you want us to help you we would

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always always be happy to. And you know, it's not always about finances, not always about ambition.

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Somebody will be doing this, will be duping their employer by working for somebody else,

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setting up in competition. The ramifications sometimes can be very very different. I mean I can

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recall a client, and Harry and I've talked about this person in the past, where the job that they

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were doing didn't really harm what they were doing ,except it was in danger of really

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sullying their employer's reputation. The instance I remember was a female employer working in the city

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in London for a high level company talking with, and dealing with, high level clients who she met

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face to face, and the reputation of the company was everything -you know, always perfectly professionally

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dressed, professionally presented, and when things were starting to go wrong ,and we were picking her

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up after work and seeing where she went to, where she was going to, was not home, was down to Soho,

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where probably quite a few of her clients frequented anywhere, and she was quite hard to

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recognize, working significantly underdressed in quite a seedy bar in Soho. if anybody had seen her

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the damage to the employer would probably have been quite colossal. That's right, reputational

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damage is the last thing the perpetrator is going to be thinking about ,and it's the first thing that you

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as a business are going to be thinking about. It's not always a contractual issue. Essentially all

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this work, if it becomes active, if it becomes public, reputational damage can spread far beyond the

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individual concerned, and it can affect your client confidence, your organisation, how it's perceived,

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the list goes on, it can be endless. Acting quickly and swiftly in any of these cases is important,

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a simple policy breach can completely explode into a big situation that an organisation is going to

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find much harder to repair, than if it's tackled early on. So while a second job might start as

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that quiet side arrangement, as you've heard the ripple effects can be much larger than people expect.

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In the end, I would say moonlighting sits at an interesting crossroads between opportunity and risk,

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so for the employees it represents that flexibility or that financial security.

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Organisations it really raises the important questions around transparency, loyalty and reputation.

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Do you know many years ago we did a small series for the BBC, it was sort of late night stuff and

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one of the episodes we did on this very subject of moonlighting, it was, they called it the

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Spanish Inquisition, bad, really bad title, but there was a chef who was thought about doing two jobs

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and which he was doing ,but the trouble that he was always downstairs in the kitchen,

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so proving it, there was a young colleague of mine who she had a very very young appearance and she

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quite brazenly walked into this restaurant saying we are media students with somebody else,

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you know can we just do a bit of filming in here about. whatever nonsense she should told them.

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and ended up going downstairs with this camera ,and they're like,' oh what are you doing' and

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so she told them what they were doing, and the person in question sat there and was

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interviewed on camera, and told her all about the job that he was doing, and how he prepared food,

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the, I mean the evidence on it was just so laughable, it was

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'get out of that one', yeah I was going to say ' try defending that one when that comes through the courts.'

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Well yeah this is a prime example of how we can go about different ways of getting this

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information right, it doesn't necessarily have to fall into the generic tropes of you know mresearch

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or surveillance, it can be as simple who's just going ahead, putting a camera in, asking some questions,

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doing what we need to do. Well yeah often it's a simplest way, just ask somebody, oh what are you

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doing? Oh I'm working, I'm preparing food, really? Okay can you tell me more about it? People

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want to talk, so often, and I think often the thing that goes with it ,and this is more for a psychology

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student or qualified psychologist than, you know, than for me- I've always been convinced there's

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a certain arrogance about this, somebody who is doing this they are cheating, they are defrauding

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but they're cleverer than anybody else, this feel that I will never get caught because I'm clever,

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I'm more clever than them, look they're so stupid, they'll never realize I'm putting down two

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salaries, I'm doing this, in time when I'm saying I'm off sick or I've got to go home early or I've

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got to go because I've got to take the cat to the vet or whatever, and they are doing the other job

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in their employer's time. But Harry I'll leave you to summarize this because I've now got this

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bug that I want to go onto YouTube and find some very very old and past episodes of Moonlighting

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and Watch Bruce Willis in his absolute early days and hey days, its a series I could always recommend

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for anybody who likes vintage stuff, it was classic at the time and the title is brilliant.

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I don't know a couple of thoughts, if you're an employer what do you look for?

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It's the change of behaviour, it's someone who used to be your regular, run of the mill Joe who's

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now perhaps turning up late, answering a plethora of phonecalls on their mobile devices, more often than

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they usually are, you actually find as well your employees, the people who are best at ground with

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all the information, kind of goes back to what I was saying before about that story involving

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the water company, your employees are going to know what's going on with your other employees,

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so having those regular checks and looking at them, but yeah any sort of change of behaviour

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normally is a good indication that there's something else going on or perhaps there up to something

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else themselves. We've got a page on a website about this, so I'm trying not to do adverts, but

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if you do want to know a little bit more, rather than giving you a link, just google answers

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investigation, Moonlighting, that should bring the page up. Also, we'd love to hear from you,

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we love having listeners come on to the podcast, if you've got a story about this subject,

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please please get in touch with us, there's an email address to use podcast@private-detectives.co.uk,

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we'd love to hear from you, and who knows, it could be your voice that you're hearing very very soon.

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Hola, soy James Lapton, intérprete y traductor. Escuchar me el pod cast"Diarios de detectives",

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donde les cuento mis experiencias trabajando desde el Tribunal Superior de Inglaterra

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hasta el campo colombiano. Hi, I'm James Lapton, interpreter and translator,

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come and listen to me on detective diaries, talking about my experiences working from the English

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High Court to the Colombian countryside.

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History remembers him in the shadows of Whitechapel, but the real Frederick Abberline was more than a

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Ripper hunter. He was a man of 84 commendations, a meticulous detective who colleagues said look

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more like a bank manager than a street hardened copper. In part two of our podcast on the life of

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Abberline, we follow him through the scandals that broke his faith in the system, from the

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Cleveland Street Male brothel inquiry, to the high stakes Turkish Bond robbery.

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Disillusioned by cover-ups involving the British aristocracy, Abberline walked away from Scotland Yard,

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only to become the European agent for the legendary Pinkerton National Detective Agency.

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From Hunting gambling cheats in Monte Carlo to his eventual retreat to the seaside air of

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Bournemouth, we explore his later years at Escort and Holdenhurst Road, but even in retirement,

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the ghosts of 1888 remained. Join us as we close the casebook on a Victorian legend, detective

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diaries, Frederick Abberline part two. Listen now on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

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We hope you enjoyed today's podcast brought to you by answers investigation and UK fingerprint.

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If you've enjoyed our conversation and want to learn more about the fascinating world of

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To find out more, visit www.private-detectives.co.uk, that's a minus sign,

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Thanks once again for tuning in. Until next time, stay curious and keep seeking the truth.

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[The text on screen]

Podcast

'Moonlighting Employees'

TRANSCRIPT

'Moonlighting'

"searching the world for answers"